Sonce1950 Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 My favorite Gown for wedding is this one.. ' It looks awesome and for accessories I prefer hair clips and Bracelets.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DameAgnes Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I'm sorry, I hate to be a negative nelly, but this obsession with bridal trappings seems to be to be precisely what the vocation to CV is not about. The material is the absolute smallest part of it, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax_et bonum Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 It's not what the vocation to marriage is about either, but do you go around reprimanding girls or young women for planning their weddings? I don't see anyone obsessing over it, and even if the material is the absolute smallest part, it is still a part of it. This is something that really irks me. Of course we need to be grounded in reality, but there's nothing wrong with fantasizing about one's wedding, consecration, investiture, vows, ordination, or whatever. Romanticism is not objectively wrong. Marriage is romantic as is the consecrated life, and that's important not to forget even though both vocations are also challenging. People need to stop telling discerners to stop over romanticizing consecrated life as if they aren't allowed to see any romance in it at all. If someone really is over romanticizing the life, visiting and living the life of a consecrated person will cure that better than scoldings from a stranger on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpfrog Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I guess the difference with planning a wedding is that there is usually an actual marriage in the works...I've always found it strange when girls get all into wedding stuff when they don't even have a boyfriend :). Doesn't it take a while to be accepted as a cv? Are you definitely going to have this ceremony? If there is no definite plan, then this is just a pleasant and relatively harmless Internet time-waster. Is wasting time objectively wrong? I think you could find many saints who affirm that it is. Is it the worst way to spend time? No, but it definitely has a 'little girl' vibe to it. Some people find that irritating. It's natural for those in consecrated life to react to someones 'romantic' ideas as seeming a bit trivializing. The time to look at wedding dresses us when you are actually going to be married, right? Otherwise it does come across as being a little misdirected and disconnected from reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponsa-Christi Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Dear Pax et Bonum, I honestly, truly was not trying to reprimand, scold, or shame anyone here. I was just trying to introduce a note of balance. Being a consecrated virgin myself, I do think it's fair for me to assume that I might have some special insight as to what the needs of possible future CVs actually are. And I honestly believe that there is indeed a real danger of over-romanticizing this vocation in an unhealthy way (perhaps even more so than for other vocations), and that even well-balanced discerners need to be aware of this. If an aspiring CV does get distracted by the "fun stuff," unlike a future religious she might not have anyone in her life who is ready, willing, or able to bring her back down to earth--or who will even understand just how vitally important staying grounded really is. I know this might sound a bit preposterous to someone reading from an "outsider's" perspective, but it is entirely possible for an aspiring CV to focus so much of her discernment/formation time around planning for the day, that once the day is over she finds herself at a loss when it comes to dealing with the demands of living out a consecrated life. (I have personally known consecrated virgins who have found themselves in this situation.) Being unprepared for one's vocation in this way not only hurts the Church, but it can also cause a lot of personal suffering for the new CV. I strongly agree with the more points that both Dame Agnes and Jumpfrog are making. But, my posts here were actually motivated out of a more subjective, personal sisterly concern for aspiring consecrated virgins, coming from someone who's "been there." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponsa-Christi Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) sorry, double-post Edited August 21, 2013 by Sponsa-Christi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax_et bonum Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I can't respond to jumpfrog in the interest of charity (I'm too sassy for my own good sometimes ;) ), but my other post wasn't directed at you, Sponsa, just so you know. That's a good point that an aspiring CV might not have someone to keep her grounded like someone discerning with a religious community does. There's just been too many posts on VS about not over romanticizing religious life to the point that when I was talking with a VS'er, she immediately felt like she had to defend herself that she wasn't doing that, and I think that's awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 This was supposed to be a fun thread! As for the book, I've recommended Therese's book to any number of women. I don't think one of them has mistakenly over-romanticized her potential vocation, before or after reading the book. It's a practical book for a practical purpose. It's not meant to be a how-to-guide on initial steps in discerning the CV vocation. I imagine Therese didn't see a need to duplicate the wealth of resources the USACV website already offers on that score. Another random point is that a woman discerning the CV vocation should have some real life experience. That will knock any romanticism right out of her! If she's developed a structured prayer life, grown in grace, supported herself financially, educated herself, found her apostolate, discerned her vocation, been faithful to it, all while being present to her family, her work, her obligations, her friends, and being generous to Our Lord in each moment of her day, it would be pretty hard for romanticisism to take root. I think the nature of the CV vocation lived in the Church and in the world by a person discerning the vocation is a good antidote to romanticism. Here's another point. I've met a lot of devout Catholic women in my life. I've never observed a general trend to over romanticize a religious or consecrated vocation. What I have seen is a trend, in those who are drawn to a religious or consecrated vocation to undervalue a lay or married vocation. That, I think, is the real problem. I think many devout, unmarried women out there have NO IDEA how hard it is to be a wife and mom. NO CLUE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Ok, I guess I took the thread off course again above, sorry! I should have read all the posts before commenting. I do think the criticisms of Therese's book came across as catty and unfounded. First rule in reviewing a book: look at the author's intention. As for planning the consecration day, I'm all for it. It's a feast! It's a time for family, the best and biggest family of all, the Church! Sometimes Americans can be awfully dour about feast days. Whereas the Italians, they know how to have a magnificent feast, full of meaning. Chucking material elements out the window because they are a "distraction" isn't Catholic. It's Puritan. The idea is to infuse the feast with grace & meaning. Sure, it's a hard balance to strike. Sure, it's always possible to get sucked into materialism. But the answer isn't to cop out and over emphasize the spiritual. That's the easy way out. The answer is to buckle down, in prayer and learning, and figure out how to plan a holy feast that will show the secular world what the marriage of spirit & matter is all about. That's what building Catholic culture entails. It's a very American reaction to think a party has to be extravagant to be beautiful or that if it is beautiful it must be extravagant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sponsa-Christi Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Another random point is that a woman discerning the CV vocation should have some real life experience. That will knock any romanticism right out of her! If she's developed a structured prayer life, grown in grace, supported herself financially, educated herself, found her apostolate, discerned her vocation, been faithful to it, all while being present to her family, her work, her obligations, her friends, and being generous to Our Lord in each moment of her day, it would be pretty hard for romanticisism to take root. I think the nature of the CV vocation lived in the Church and in the world by a person discerning the vocation is a good antidote to romanticism. Dear Laurie, I know it seems like whenever we post on the same thread, that I'm always disagreeing with you. Please do know that this isn't deliberate! The thing about consecrated virginity as a vocation is that you really can't have "lived experience" as a consecrated virgin until after you're consecrated. I totally agree with you that living as full a "consecrated" life as you can prior to consecration is important, but (for reasons which are hard to put into words) this isn't nearly the same thing as the experience of actually being a consecrated virgin. Even if your exterior life remains outwardly the same, being consecrated is a huge change--and not always an easy one. I know I'm probably not going to be very convincing here, but if you're willing to take my word for it, I really do think that the "trappings" of the consecration day celebrations have the potential to be a serious distraction for even the most spiritually mature candidates. Yes, it is appropriate and fitting to have a beautiful celebration, and it can be good wholesome fun to do some of the party planning when you're actually approaching your consecration date. But when it's your own consecration you're thinking of, I think it is good to try to cultivate as much of a sense of detachment from the non-essentials as you possibly can. Also, I really wasn't trying to make a general criticism of Therese's book. I personally would not recommend it to someone who was just beginning to discern this vocation. But I also wouldn't recommend "The Dark Night of the Soul" to someone just beginning to take their prayer life seriously, and St. John of the Cross is one of my favorite saints! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 The thing about consecrated virginity as a vocation is that you really can't have "lived experience" as a consecrated virgin until after you're consecrated. I totally agree with you that living as full a "consecrated" life as you can prior to consecration is important, but (for reasons which are hard to put into words) this isn't nearly the same thing as the experience of actually being a consecrated virgin. Even if your exterior life remains outwardly the same, being consecrated is a huge change--and not always an easy one. I know I'm probably not going to be very convincing here, but if you're willing to take my word for it, I really do think that the "trappings" of the consecration day celebrations have the potential to be a serious distraction for even the most spiritually mature candidates. This is disingenuous. You claim on the one hand that the virgin is already a bride of Christ through this mysterious grace that somehow is given to her and the Consecration is nothing but a formal recognition of this, and now you are claiming the opposite, that a woman can't live consecrated life until she is consecrated. What do you really believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) This is such a polarizing discussion! I kind of see it like this... Obviously, the life itself is not about the dress. The main event is receiving the consecration. The spiritual component should be focused on primarily. However also, sometimes it's hard not to think about this stuff. Like how we have a wedding dress thread for religious life... and girls think about their future weddings etc... I know it might just seem like a "girly" thing do to but it could also be because it's so symbolic. When we see that there's a dress, and a veil, and a ring, it's obvious what we're looking at. I like symbolism personally. For example in some orders, they receive the crown of thorns.. I think that's beautiful and so symbolic and helps us to understand something spiritual. I think we should focus on what is spiritual, but ceremony can contain symbolism that could be helpful for this. If someone wants to wear a pretty dress to look pretty and so that everyone would look at her and so that she would feel special, personally I don't think that relates to consecrated life at all and is probably even kind of opposed to it... but if she wants what is essentially her wedding day to be beautiful and special because of what it means to her, or because she likes the symbolism, that's fine.... In my opinion, the adornments of the bride that would please Jesus are her humility, love for Him, purity... but the dress is symbolic, just how white is symbolic for purity. If a person were to be Christ's bride, she would need to make sure that interiorly she is pleasing to Him... but the details that come with the consecration are to show the meaning of the event. I think if a future bride thinks of the day when she would become fully her Bridegroom's, - of course she would want to make this a special day. As a related point, for the Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary, the person is advised to make the day special too: by giving Mother Mary a candle or flowers, and maybe wearing their blessed 'little chain' as a symbol. Regarding what is appropriate for a consecration... I think personally, anything too modern fashionable would not fit as well. I think it's more beautiful if everything is done in a classical way. That's just my own feelings. I think it would be beautiful if the dress is very modest and simple and elegant - just to reflect the bride's purity. I personally wouldn't choose something strapless or even sleeveless, - I think it's beautiful for the bride to be more covered, because that symbolizes so well that she's a virgin and only meant for her Beloved. Then there are some things that would just not make as much sense, to me at least, like throwing the bouquet, or of course anything inappropriate or not in keeping with perfect purity should not be used. Just some thoughts :) Edited August 21, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrideofChrist Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Ima, I am so sorry that your poor thread has been diverted from its purpose, especially since you have social anxiety. Unfortunately, this is a topic which does polarize people and they can't take an innocent planning book recommendation from you or your desire to see the beautiful pictures of the Lord's brides without some women with agendas taking over. I have more to say to Sponsa Christi and her followers in my thread because I can take the ill treatment and bullying some of these women like to dish out and it shouldn't be directed towards you. I enjoy seeing the photos because they remind me of my own precious day when the Lord espoused me and of the consecrations of other CVs I have had the privilege to attend. God is very good to us to give us a powerful image of the Church's love reciprocating His own in the person of the CV. The virgin brings both her spiritual adornments and her material ones to please her heavenly Bridegroom. I remember reading about St. Therese preparing her wedding gown so to speak of virtues prior to entering the convent and later wearing an extremely expensive gown and lace for her physical bridal gown. That same gown and veil would probably cost in the tens of thousands in modern money. She knew this was to delight the eyes of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Ima, I am so sorry that your poor thread has been diverted from its purpose, especially since you have social anxiety. Unfortunately, this is a topic which does polarize people and they can't take an innocent planning book recommendation from you or your desire to see the beautiful pictures of the Lord's brides without some women with agendas taking over. I have more to say to Sponsa Christi and her followers in my thread because I can take the ill treatment and bullying some of these women like to dish out and it shouldn't be directed towards you. Recently you were quite cuttingly sarcastic to BarbaraTherese, all for the crime of not understanding you fast enough. Barbara suffers from bipolar disorder (regularly mentioned on Phatmass) and I know from my work in mental health that this illness can make it a little harder for people to stay focused and to process information as fast as others. If SponsaChristi is a bully for not taking into account ImaLurker's social anxiety when critiquing this thread, what does that make you? Your own posts often come across as quite unkind, and I am not the first person to point this out to you - only you have brushed off every single person's comments on this as them just not interpreting you correctly. One thing I have noticed about the CVs who post on Phatmass is that there is a tendency for you to all criticise and contradict one another every chance you get. You do it, SponsaChristi does it. You have both said in the past that this sort of 'discussion' is important to clear up misconceptions about the vocation, etc., etc., but sometimes it feels like you have all turned Vocation Station into your own personal battleground for airing whatever grievances you have with one another. A while ago Lillabett wrote that the treatment CVs have for each other on Phatmass is very disedifying, and I agree. It's not pleasant to watch you pull each other to pieces like this. I'm not saying this as a 'follower' of anyone, but as a long-time regular user of Phatmass who is tired of all the vinegar and venom that has been sloshing around here lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Dear Laurie, I know it seems like whenever we post on the same thread, that I'm always disagreeing with you. Please do know that this isn't deliberate! The thing about consecrated virginity as a vocation is that you really can't have "lived experience" as a consecrated virgin until after you're consecrated. I totally agree with you that living as full a "consecrated" life as you can prior to consecration is important, but (for reasons which are hard to put into words) this isn't nearly the same thing as the experience of actually being a consecrated virgin. Even if your exterior life remains outwardly the same, being consecrated is a huge change--and not always an easy one. I know I'm probably not going to be very convincing here, but if you're willing to take my word for it, I really do think that the "trappings" of the consecration day celebrations have the potential to be a serious distraction for even the most spiritually mature candidates. Yes, it is appropriate and fitting to have a beautiful celebration, and it can be good wholesome fun to do some of the party planning when you're actually approaching your consecration date. But when it's your own consecration you're thinking of, I think it is good to try to cultivate as much of a sense of detachment from the non-essentials as you possibly can. Also, I really wasn't trying to make a general criticism of Therese's book. I personally would not recommend it to someone who was just beginning to discern this vocation. But I also wouldn't recommend "The Dark Night of the Soul" to someone just beginning to take their prayer life seriously, and St. John of the Cross is one of my favorite saints! Thanks, Sponsa Christi. I did get your original points. You explained them fine the first few times. I just didn't agree with them. I wouldn't put a vocation to be a CV on the same level of marriage to a mortal in terms of not being able to really experience it until you are consecrated. There's a pretty huge difference between adjusting to life with another human being versus continuing in the prayer & life routine you have already established and that has already fed your soul and nourished your discernment. That said, no doubt there is a real difference between a woman before and after she's consecrated (kind of like my position that private vows do not a consecrated virgin make, huh? ;)). But I don't think we should discount the experience of a good and holy and faithful life (in all the vocations, and in all levels of those discerning vocations) as the antidote to romanticism. Romanticism is immature. It might be mildly immature, and relatively harmless in many cases, but it's immature nonetheless. To be frank, I think the romanticism argument on this thread is another straw man. It's easy to argue at length against a position that you yourself have constructed and have decided has premium importance. I just don't see the value in that. I know that's really blunt, but it's a pattern I'm seeing over, and over, and over. I get some of the more minor points you are making, certainly. But again, I don't think anyone here thinks a CV's consecration day should be absorbed in materialism or that planning the day should be her focus. In my experience of the CVs and discerners I've met, this wasn't and isn't a problem. So it does seem like a lot of chatter about a non-issue (of course any single woman could be off track here, but any woman who really is absorbed by the consecration day isn't ready to be consecrated--but it's up to her bishop and others to figure that out, she would probably be evidencing that same immaturity in other aspects of her life as well). In the illustration given, I don't see the point you are trying to make with St. John's Dark Night. I picked up the Dark Night of the Soul when I was 10. Not kidding! I got a lot out of even though much was above my head. I would think Therese's book would be similar, in that it has a lot of gems. You don't have to "see the entire picture" or have fully discerned the vocation to appreciate the gems. Lastly, you did criticize Therese's book and you criticized it out of nowhere and not based upon what the book itself purports to do. You used it to launch your own ideas of what advice you think needs to be given to discerners and how you think her book detracts from true discernment in the begininning. Okay, so choosing that route was your choice but my point is just that I don't get it. It's not the way to do a good book review (i.e., fairly and objectively). Someone said it came across like you were making Therese's book about yourself. That is how it came across to me, too. For what it's worth, that's how it came across. Kind of like you needed to be the expert, too. But maybe starting your own thread on that would have been a good idea? On that note, poor Ima, I'll stop! I've seen many beautiful photos but I think others have posted much of them. I'll see what I can find out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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