Q: Re: Discalced Carmelites

[AccountDeleted]

Another interesting read is A book for the Hour of Recreation by Sr María de San José Salazar, the first Prioress of Seville. She often refers to Teresa, John and Gracian (using nicknames that they all used to refer to each other for safety's sake) and discusses things that were happening at the time.

 

http://www.amazon.it/kindle-store/dp/B001DA9ED0

 

Book for the Hour of Recreation

María de San José Salazar (1548-1603) took the veil as a Discalced ("barefoot") Carmelite nun in 1571, becoming one of Teresa of Avila's most important collaborators in religious reform and serving as prioress of the Seville… (More) María de San José Salazar (1548-1603) took the veil as a Discalced ("barefoot") Carmelite nun in 1571, becoming one of Teresa of Avila's most important collaborators in religious reform and serving as prioress of the Seville and Lisbon convents. Within the parameters of the strict Catholic Reformation in Spain, María fiercely defended women's rights to define their own spiritual experience and to teach, inspire, and lead other women in reforming their church. María wrote this book as a defense of the Discalced practice of setting aside two hours each day for conversation, music, and staging of religious plays. Casting the book in the form of a dialogue, María demonstrates through fictional conversations among a group of nuns during their hours of recreation how women could serve as very effective spiritual teachers for each other. The book includes one of the first biographical portraits of Teresa and Maria's personal account of the troubled founding of the Discalced convent at Seville, as well as her tribulations as an Inquisitional suspect. Rich in allusions to women's affective relationships in the early modern convent, Book for the Hour of Recreation also serves as an example of how a woman might write when relatively free of clerical censorship and expectations. A detailed introduction and notes by Alison Weber provide historical and biographical context for Amanda Powell's fluid translation.

[Ima Lurker]

The reason why there are two sets of constitutions is simple.  The Discalced Carmelite Nuns cannot compromise with just one text.  Suffice it to say that there are Conservative, Liberal and those in between.  However, Pope John Paul II made it clear by saying:

 

Both texts, equally approved by the Church, seek to be faithful interpretations of the Teresian charism.  This remains unaltered, as well as the style of life proposed by the Holy Mother (St. Teresa) in her Constitutions and other writings.  The differences do not refer therefore, either to the substance of the Teresian Carmelite contemplative charism, or to the necessary and constant return to the primitive inspiration.  They correspond rather to the diverse modalities of interpreting adaptation to the changed conditions of the times, (cf. Perfectae caritatis no.2), and formulation of legislation for religious institutes, the approbation of which is the exclusive competence of the Holy See.  We are dealing with different appreciations that are born from the same wish to be faithful to the Lord, which the Holy See has sought to respect.  In the same way it respects the liberty of each monastery to opt for one or the other of the approved constitutional texts.

 

After the death of St. Teresa, Mother Anne of Jesus fought so hard against those who tried to alter the Nun’s constitutions.  There were minor variations of the constitutions as time goes by but it’s just minor.  When Mother Anne of Jesus established the reform in France, she brought along the constitutions approved by Pope as per her request, so the French foundations and their daughter houses followed Mother Anne’s texts.  It was only in 1926 that uniform Constitutions were imposed to all Discalced Carmelite Nuns.

 

I have interviewed Nuns and Prioresses following the 1990 and 1991 Constitutions throughout my research and each gave their reasons why they prefer the 1990 or 1991 texts.  The 1990 text is basically the Alcala Text with some articles suppressed since it no longer has juridical value and are now obsolete.  The 1990 text also added several chapters to cover the provisions of the New Code of Canon Law.  On the other hand, the 1991 text is flexible and is similar to the majority of constitutions I have read from other cloistered order.  Therefore, the 1990 text is a conservative.

 

There are Orders that have different Constitutions.  Please take note that the Order of Poor Clares has several constitutions in vigor; for example, when the General Constitutions of the Poor Clare Nuns was promulgated, a group of Poor Clare Colettine Nuns asked the the Minister General for the approval of their own alternate texts.  Mother Mary Francis, PCC wrote the constitutions in the name of the Federation of Mary Immaculate in the USA.  This text is open to all Poor Clare Nuns who prefers to follow this alternate constitution if they desire.  I have read the constitutions of the Poor Clare Colettines, Capuchin Poor Clares, Franciscan Nuns of Perpetual Adoration now PCPA before and after Vatican II.  The Benedictine Order, grouped into various independent congregations has many sets of Constituions. 

 

I suggest that you read what I posted slowly and thoroughly so you will understand the situation better.

 

May I ask why you are interested about the 1990 and 1991 text?

 

Yes, I asked first of all because I'd never heard of it and simply didn't understand why it was set up that way! I had understood the Calced to be in need of reformation, and hence the Discalced came about. So when it came up in one of my homeschool groups, (someone casually referring to it), I wanted to know more and figured if I asked  here, again, the only Catholic forum I'm active on, that someone could provide some useful information AND maybe others could look at it and say, "Huh. I did not know that." Which is what I've been doing. (Saying, "huh, I did not know that..")

 

Seeing the Orders as a family, as Nunsense described, is a great easy way to describe it to the others should it come up again. I am definitely going to check up with my friends to see if anyone has it already and if not, I'll add it to my library so we can take turns reading it.

 

I AM reading what you posted. And thank you for explaining it. And thank you for highlighting texts. And I'm sorry if I've annoyed you. :)

 

Edited August 18, 2013 by Ima Lurker

[graciandelamadrededios]

Yes, I asked first of all because I'd never heard of it and simply didn't understand why it was set up that way! I had understood the Calced to be in need of reformation, and hence the Discalced came about. So when it came up in one of my homeschool groups, (someone casually referring to it), I wanted to know more and figured if I asked  here, again, the only Catholic forum I'm active on, that someone could provide some useful information AND maybe others could look at it and say, "Huh. I did not know that." Which is what I've been doing. (Saying, "huh, I did not know that..")

 

Seeing the Orders as a family, as Nunsense described, is a great easy way to describe it to the others should it come up again. I am definitely going to check up with my friends to see if anyone has it already and if not, I'll add it to my library so we can take turns reading it.

 

I AM reading what you posted. And thank you for explaining it. And thank you for highlighting texts. And I'm sorry if I've annoyed you. :)

 

 

I am not annoyed at all!  I did not intend to do that.  

 

Your questions are more than welcome and I am sure a lot of members here can contribute answers that are helpful.

[graciandelamadrededios]

duplicate

Edited August 18, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[graciandelamadrededios]

Thank you so much! I really am grateful for the input.

 

I don't understand the need for 2 constitutions since they are all discalced Carmelites, no? Splitting the family in 2 accomplishes what, exactly? I am trying to read through everyone's helpful posts but it's slow as some days are very very busy for me.

 

Why are there distinctions? Is one set of Constitutions superior to the other? If so, why? If not, why are there 2 sets of Constitutions???

 

And are Carmelites the only Order with more than 1 set of Constitutions? Is this normal in the Church?

 

Any input would be gratefully received, please and thank you!

 

Peace!
 

 

Are in college, dear?  Well, some of the people who are asking questions about the 1990 and 1991 Constitutions are those are planning to enter Carmel.  

 

Some of the members here in this forum and a good friend of mine, Chiqui has posted information about Carmel and the 2 texts.

 

By the way, there are few Carmels that are following the Hybrid Text.

 

Will explain that later, need to catch some Zzzzzzz.  Its almost 11 pm here in Manila, Philippines!!!

[Ima Lurker]

Sadly, I've put my college studies on hold in order to be a full time, homemaker and homeschool mom. Since it's more expensive to educate your own children rather than let the State babysit them, (sorry, personal opinion there), while I've taken a couple of basic courses, I just don't have the time right now to do anything there.

 

Also, it's why I read so slowly here, to try to make sure I am reading correctly.

 

They say the brain is a muscle that needs to be exercised. This is partly why I am on PM and because I figure I can make it twofold, sharpen my mind and learn about my faith.

 

So, at the risk of killing you with repetitive repetition (haha), "Thank you for sharing your knowledge of these things!"

[Maire]

And in the 1991 communities there are still some nuns who entered pre Vat 2 and who probably would have preferred if their community had chosen the 1990 Constitutions because they still have the 1990 attitudes about many things and seem to be bitter and resentful of some of the changes. Even in a 1991 Carmel I often heard things like 'In my day...' with the ending usually being something like '...postulants weren't allowed to speak up.' (meaning: so why should you be allowed to do it?) or '... we didn't get given an Office until after our Solemn Profession!' (meaning: so why were you given an Office?). It is sometimes hard to see others given what we weren't allowed - witness the prodigal son and his brother. One old nun even said to my face, 'In my day, we wouldn't have let someone like you enter!' I had to ponder what this meant since I wasn't quite sure what it was about me that she found so appalling. Was it because I was an American? A convert? A woman with an annulment hence a non-virgin? And why did she feel it necessary to point out to me just how unworthy I was to be there? And the funny thing is, that even though she seemed to find me unsuitable for a 1991 Carmel, I had previously been in a 1990 Carmel - so their standards must have been even lower to have accepted me! Sometimes you just gotta laugh at the absurdity of a situation.

Oh, wow, if a nun had said that to me I would have been devastated! I can't even imagine such a thing!

As for the rest of the topic, I had no idea that there were two constitutions! How fascinating!

[AccountDeleted]

Oh, wow, if a nun had said that to me I would have been devastated! I can't even imagine such a thing!

As for the rest of the topic, I had no idea that there were two constitutions! How fascinating!

 

 

I don't think I've had much worse said to me by nuns, but pretty close to it. I seem to attract the bullies for some reason :)

[graciandelamadrededios]

Oh, wow, if a nun had said that to me I would have been devastated! I can't even imagine such a thing!

As for the rest of the topic, I had no idea that there were two constitutions! How fascinating!

 

Before Vatican II, humiliation was common practice.  Its like testing the new members.  St. Therese was humiliated several times by Mother Marie de Gonzague.

 

One Prioress from a Carmelite Monastery in the Philippines shared about her experiences about humiliation when she was a young novice and I was horrified that Nuns used such language.

 

As for the Constitutions, yes there are officially 2 sets: the 1990 and the 1991.  There are also few monasteries that adapted the 1990 text but follows some points of the 1991 text pertaining to the Superior General of the Order.  They call it "Hybrid Text."

Edited August 25, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios