Homily: Marriage Is Good, But Celibacy Is Better

[abrideofChrist]

[mod]Aggressive, confrontational tone. Please take it somewhere other than the Vocation Station. Thanks. -dUSt[/mod]

[AccountDeleted]

The Blessed Virgin was a spouse, mother, and virgin. Clearly God is trying to tell us something here.

 

 

Oh this is so sweet - thank you for reminding us of that! He blessed every state of life in the Virgin Mary.

 

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.  Gen 1:31

 

If only we could focus on what unites us and not what divides us. God sees us all and doesn't divide us into good and better. He sees that ALL that He has made is good.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I do think that - consecrated souls, mothers, - can all relate to the Blessed Mother :) and that's great! As we know Mother Mary is above the Saints.. but she is His Mother.

 

I don't think that contradicts at all the statements about consecrated life being a superior state of life to marriage... and it's not to be taken in a superior prideful kind of way either :) that would be wrong, cause if God chooses me, that's not because I'm deserving.

[abrideofChrist]

Now WHY do you think the Popes would bother to defend this DOGMA that was not explicitly said out of Jesus Christ's mouth but has been the constant teaching of the Church?  Seems to me that I recall that it is because the Church teaches that for those who are called to it, the consecrated state is more efficacious way in and of itself for bringing people to salvation.  This is important for people to know so that they can better understand what it is that they might be called to.  It is very hard to understand the consecrated state and flippant statements that everyone is called to holiness aren't helpful when one is sincerely discerning.  It's like saying the presidency, the army, and the navy are all ways of serving the country.  But don't worry.  All that matters is charity.  Focus on charity and you'll know what you need to be.  That is simply not true.  You need to know what it means to hold the office of president or what the difference is between the army and the navy. 

Edited August 17, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[AccountDeleted]

My bad.  Let me highlight a different part of the quote, something which you probably didn't catch the first time around.

 

 

32. This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as We have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent,[57] and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church. Finally, We and Our Predecessors have often expounded it and earnestly advocated it whenever occasion offered. But recent attacks on this traditional doctrine of the Church, the danger they constitute, and the harm they do to the souls of the faithful lead Us, in fulfillment of the duties of Our charge, to take up the matter once again in this Encyclical Letter, and to reprove these errors which are so often propounded under a specious appearance of truth.

 

 

Can you give me the source for that quote? I mean, is it a letter he wrote or a part of the Catechism or what? I would really like to read it in its source document.

 

As for this thread. I can see why you believe the way you do and I am certainly open enough to read your source documents, but I think my objection will still stay that to promote the superiority of one state of life over another is counter-productive to the Christian spirit. Because let's face it, the Apostles were certainly  the most important disciples to Jesus during His life, but when they debated their greatness, He rebuked them, and when He even told them things like the 'last shall be first' and 'unless you become as little children ...'  and

 

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.… Mt 18:1-3

 

So perhaps rather than putting things in bolded red or all caps (which means shouting by the way) we could try for a little humility with each other? Shouting doesn't win an argument - it just creates discord. And as Christians, we should be trying to find a common meeting ground with each rather - like our mutual love for Jesus - right? Pax.

[abrideofChrist]

Sacra Virginitas- an Encyclical from Pope Pius XII.  Also quoted in the page linked to by Friar John Paul in the original post- did you read it?

[AccountDeleted]

Now WHY do you think the Popes would bother to defend this DOGMA that was not explicitly said out of Jesus Christ's mouth but has been the constant teaching of the Church?  Seems to me that I recall that it is because the Church teaches that for those who are called to it, the consecrated state is more efficacious way in and of itself for bringing people to salvation.  This is important for people to know so that they can better understand what it is that they might be called to.  It is very hard to understand the consecrated state and flippant statements that everyone is called to holiness aren't helpful when one is sincerely discerning.  It's like saying the presidency, the army, and the navy are all ways of serving the country.  But don't worry.  All that matters is charity.  Focus on charity and you'll know what you need to be.  That is simply not true.  You need to know what it means to hold the office of president or what the difference is between the army and the navy. 

 

 

Well, I can see that living the life of a religious or a priest would certainly be very helpful in one achieving sanctity - environment is very important. But of course, that doesn't mean there haven't been very unholy priests or nuns or popes. God gives us tools to help us in our quest for holiness, and He calls each of us in a different way to achieve that.

 

Actually, the Presidency, the army and the navy are all ways of serving the country and I don't think one is superior to another in quality. They each have different levels of responsibility and 'to he whom much is given, much is expected' but everyone has been given different gifts to use and God has a different plan for each one of us. The President should see himself as a servant of the people, just as the Pope sees himself as a servant of the servants of God. I  don't see Pope Francis waving his arms and telling everyone that because He is Pope, he is superior to everyone else. That is what I object to. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples to show them that even the Master serves.

 

Perhaps our terminology is all that separates us. Perhaps you see words like 'better' as simply meaning 'more of a servant'. I don't know what is in anyone's heart just as they don't know what is in mine.

 

Perhaps I am reacting this way because of my experiences, just as others will react according to their own. But I have seen pride, vanity, ambition for power and seeing oneself as better than others in convents, and it has sickened me that such a precious vocation should be inflicted with such attitudes. It is only human of course, that is why the Apostles quarreled about it. But it is sad too. Our Lord was so humble. And yet we still vie for position and prestige in our little lives, instead of focusing on the Kingdom.

 

As for discerners, if they are entering religious life or some other vocation simply to be 'better' than someone else - it is the wrong motivation. If we want to talk about the beauty and the joy of being called to love and serve God, then yes, by all means, let us encourage vocations - but not because we somehow think it will make us superior to someone else. Just my take on things.

 

--- And this just came through via email

 

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Sacra Virginitas- an Encyclical from Pope Pius XII.  Also quoted in the page linked to by Friar John Paul in the original post- did you read it?

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No, I didn't read it- I clicked on the link and it seemed to be a video, but I didn't see the other link to the quotes. I have gone back and read them now and they are lovely. I personally agree that human marriage is a foreshadowing of our mystical marriage between Christ and His Church. So we have no debate there. And I personally feel called to a sole relationship with Jesus as well.

 

I think where I object to what is being said, is not so much in what Friar JP posted as it is quite obvious that our relationship with God is higher than our relationship with other humans, as the way in which marriage is presented as a second-best option. for some people, this is not true. God calls some people to celibacy, but He also calls some people to marriage. And they should not made to feel that somehow they are inferior to those in a consecrated state. If a person is discerning a religious vocation or the priesthood and they are made to feel that marriage is for those who can't make it or won't try to make it as a religious/priest etc, then they might make a choice based on those feelings of pressure or guilt or some other motivation that isn't simply love and a response to God's call. Can't you see that it can't possibly help a person to discern if they are made to feel that they will somehow be less if they choose marriage? That may be God's plan for them, and the best way for them to achieve sanctity. Look at the Martins! They were definitely called to marriage, and not to celibacy - because they gave birth not only to Therese, but to her sisters as well.

 

I think we should be on the same side, but we are just expressing things differently perhaps.

 

Discernment shouldn't be about superiority.

Edited August 17, 2013 by nunsense

[cmaD2006]

I myself wasn't starting an argument but a fact that several people chose to interpret as starting an argument.  I like what he has to say, but I do not care for your double standard.  I am just waiting for everyone to tumble onto this thread and start saying how deeply inferior they feel if they are not in the consecrated state.  If this doesn't happen, then I'm forced to conclude that you and the rest were singling me out for a personal attack!  Why is it that you can read what he has linked to without taking it as a personal attack on someone's worth (when I clearly all over the place indicated that I was simply speaking of objective realities) and yet you and others can't seem to extend the same courtesy to me?  So, either you guys start getting offended by a fact he is linking to, or quit the double standard of behavior you are exhibiting en masse towards myself!

 

Wow.  Just wow.  I'm tired of the argumentative sort of attitude (and yes I am saying this directly).

 

I'm not the only one that has said something ... and if I'm not the only one, then maybe, maybe it is the way you are stating things.

 

Look -- you also stated a snarky remark.  That was uncalled for.  That's why I posted.

 

I will pray for you, and that the Lord may open your eyes. 

[AccountDeleted]

I really love the bit at the end of the article, which explains the two states of life in a way that doesn't offend at all. In this we can see the natural vocation and the supernatural one - both in God's plan but taking different paths to the same point.

 

This winds the two vocations so closely together that they are essential to each other to 'prepare the bride, the church, for her final marriage to God in heaven'.

 

Perhaps it is all in the delivery, not in the message?

 

 

 

Eearthly Marriage vs. Heavenly Marriage

 

 

The Church teaches us that marriage between a man and woman is an earthly foreshadow of the mystical marriage between Christ and His Church. It is through this earthly foreshadow [of marriage] that men and women can learn more about what they will be eventually called to in heaven. In this sense, marriage can be considered a natural vocation, and celibacy a supernatural one, i.e., it is the vocation that is not of this world, but instead points to the next. The Church teaches us that consecrated men and women are in a sense beacons directing mans eye upwards towards heaven, where earthly marriage does not exist (cf. Matt. 22:30; "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven"). In other words, those who live celibate here on earth "skip" the earthly foreshadow in favor of the heavenly marriage. As Christopher West states; "far from devaluing sexuality and marriage, true Christian celibacy actually points to their ultimate fulfillment."

John Paul II, Theology of the Body: "Is not the spousal love with which Christ “loved, the Church, ” his Bride, “and gave himself for her” equally the fullest incarnation of the ideal of “continence for the kingdom of God” (see Mt 19:12)? Is it not precisely in this love that support is found for all those—both men and women—who choose the same ideal and thus desire to link the spousal dimension of love with the redemptive dimension, according to the model of Christ himself? They desire to confirm with their lives that the spousal meaning of the body—of its masculinity and femininity—a meaning deeply inscribed in the essential structure of the human person has been opened in a new way by Christ and with the example of his life to the hope united with the redemption of the body. Thus, the grace of the mystery of redemption also bears fruit—even more: bears fruit in a particular way—with the vocation to continence “for the kingdom of heaven.”

 

In this sense, each vocation is closely related to each other, since they are simply different paths to the same end; like two sides of a coin. They each are designed to sanctify humanity by different means, and prepare the bride, the church, for her final marriage to God in heaven. We can think of discerning a vocation as like standing at a crossroads, where each path is separate and unique, yet they all eventually arrive at the same point. The path that is most common to men, is earthly marriage, because it is the "primordial sacrament", i.e., it is a kind of mini-incarnation of the spousal love of God on earth. In other words, it is through marriage and the family that most men learn about all the attributes of God; His communial relationship, His fidelity, His exclusivity to the other, His self-sacrifice, His life-generating love, etc.

 

 

[abrideofChrist]

Nunsense, tell me just how Pope Pius XII is saying that people who are not virgins are inferior as persons to people who are.  Where in the whole Encyclical does he say this?  Where in this entire thread have i said this?  Where have I EVER stated people are inferior?  I do recall talking about EQUALITY in my other thread but I also talked about OBJECTIVE superiority of state.  The Apostles were jostling for a personal superiority of holiness (level of charity) NOT a superiority of state (level of state) when they fought before Jesus.  When Jesus gave hard truth teaching about marriage and divorce many didn't bother to listen to what He had to say, and ponder it with care to see how it could be true.  They just gave a knee jerk reaction of rejection and walked off.  When the Church teaches that it is a dogma that the consecrated STATE is objectively superior to the married STATE then we need to understand how this is true rather than knee jerk reject this DOGMA which we must believe.

[abrideofChrist]

While we're at it, let's talk about homosexuality.  It is a grave disorder.  Does this mean that the homosexual person is sinful?  Or inferior to a heterosexual person?  Could it possibly be that we are talking about an objective state that is disordered and not refer to the personal holiness of people in such a state in life?

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense, tell me just how Pope Pius XII is saying that people who are not virgins are inferior as persons to people who are.  Where in the whole Encyclical does he say this?  Where in this entire thread have i said this?  Where have I EVER stated people are inferior?  I do recall talking about EQUALITY in my other thread but I also talked about OBJECTIVE superiority of state.  The Apostles were jostling for a personal superiority of holiness (level of charity) NOT a superiority of state (level of state) when they fought before Jesus.  When Jesus gave hard truth teaching about marriage and divorce many didn't bother to listen to what He had to say, and ponder it with care to see how it could be true.  They just gave a knee jerk reaction of rejection and walked off.  When the Church teaches that it is a dogma that the consecrated STATE is objectively superior to the married STATE then we need to understand how this is true rather than knee jerk reject this DOGMA which we must believe.

 

 

It seems we aren't able to send PMs right now - at least I can't for some reason, so I will just say here...

 

 

If you read my last post, you will see that it is about the way something is express that makes all the difference  - the article that was quoted closed with wonderful comments about the state of marriage and its relationship to the state of celibacy. Read it again and again and try to understand that it didn't try to force the concept of superiority down people's throats but tried to express how each state had its own beauty and why they are different.

 

I said before, I don't think we disagree about much of the content of this topic - but we obviously have different ways of expressing ourselves. I have seen personally what damage pride and vanity and a sense of superiority can do - even to those who have consecrated their lives to God or live in a  religious community. Instead of giving off the sweet odor of sanctity - the environment becomes toxic with the stench of pride in all its forms.

 

Please just try to understand that it is the way that you express yourself that comes across badly and influences how others respond to you.

 

Try not to take things so personally though as this thread wasn't about you to begin with but somehow you have hijacked it to become about you.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2013 by nunsense

[BarbTherese]

A thread bound to get people hot under the collar. :sos:

 

  The Opening Post is a strictly theological objective statement only and one that The Church supports AS an objective theological statement.  I don't think that Jesus every said at all that celibacy for The Kingdom was superior to marriage for The Kingdom............it was those that came after Jesus.  Jesus simply said -

 

"Matthew Ch19
For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother' s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it."

 

The theology of celibacy as a theological objective study developed from those words and the fact that Jesus was and is regarded as celibate.

 

Celibacy for The Kingdom is a gift of God.  But then marriage is God's Gift to mankind too. 

 

Which is better?

   Depends on how you want to look at the question - as an isolated objective theological question i.e."Which vocation is superior, celibacy or non celibacy?"

 

  Or subjectively and theologically i.e. "Which is the best vocation for me?"

[AccountDeleted]

Since this is in VS and not the Debate Table, I doubt that the OP ever thought it would degenerate into such conflict. I have said what I intended to say, too many times probably, so I am backing out of this thread. I know that this is seen by some as cowardice but I really don't feel comfortable when things start to become simply the restating of opinions and making then personal comments.

 

Every one of us is beloved by God and when we get to heaven, it won't matter what state of life we lived, but how we lived it. :) Peace.

[abrideofChrist]

Which is better?

   Depends on how you want to look at the question - as an isolated objective theological question i.e."Which vocation is superior, celibacy or non celibacy?"

 

  Or subjectively and theologically i.e. "Which is the best vocation for me?"

 

Spot on.  It really does get ridiculous when someone could say "Marriage Is Good, But Celibacy Is Better" and people misunderstand that to mean that a personal level of holiness or level of dignity as a human being is at stake.  At some point, people need to learn the fine art of critical thinking.
 

Edited August 17, 2013 by abrideofChrist