Homily: Marriage Is Good, But Celibacy Is Better

[BarbTherese]

Mary's Little Flower wrote in reply:  God's Beloved, take a look at what the Council of Trent said in the link in the original post.... it's definitively stated that celibate state is objective a higher state, and there's even an anathema attached to rejecting this. VII, a Pope, or any future Council can't change doctrine... because official doctrine doesn't change. When there's an anathema to something, that is a really serious pronouncement of what Church teaching is. What I'm trying to say is that Church teachings can't change. So what was said in Trent, continues to be true. Remember that VII didn't define dogma (in my understanding, it was more pastoral)... yet Trent did. :)

 

 

The state of celibacy is theologically above the non celibate Sacrament of Marriage, simply because the celibate state ideally embraces no intermediary but goes directly to The Lord and His Kingdom.  Marriage goes through the partner, i.e. the wife or the husband to determine God's Will for each other and for the marriage.  Hence the celibate state remains theologically above the Sacrament of Marriage and for obvious reasons.

 

Pre V2 only priesthood and/or religious life were culturally considered "vocations" per se.  Marriage as a valid and important vocation came post V2 when it was underscored by The Church as a valid and important potential call and vocation from God, along with the lay state in life per se.  Marriage as vocation has now taken root in our cultural thinking.  The lay state in life is still struggling somewhat to do so.  It takes time and effort.  

 

 I think some might have problems getting their heads around "theologically objectively superior", missing the point that nothing can be theologically objectively superior to God's Will. Hence God may call a young woman to consecrated virginity, but this does not lessen a vocation and call to The Sacrament of Marriage.  If He calls a young woman to Marriage then it is a superior call simply because it is God's Will for that person's life.  A vocation can only ever be an invitation, not a Divine Command and God's Invitations are a function of His Divine Will.  He invites to vocation, He does not command.

 

Some seem to want to stop at the objective theological determination of the various states (i.e. superior or inferior) and not take into account that nothing is superior to God's Will -  on the objective theological level as it has been discussed in this forum.

 

All from this really rickety armchair :)........or as I understand things.

Barbara, I have tried in almost every post to talk about how IF God wills a person to choose marriage, that would be their path to holiness. I'm trying to just say what my understanding of the Church teaching is. Religious life is theologically a higher state of life than marriage - which is doctrine, I am not free to debate this - and that's what I meant by "objective". Subjective in my mind means - regarding an individual person's calling, in which case they should follow their calling, and do God's will. But for those who are called to religious life, I do believe that God prepares graces for them there, so they'd have the grace to live it out well.

 

Hi MLF - I have said many times in this thead and others that I totally agree that consecrated life is higher on the objective theological scale than marriage.

 

Subject A:  Wants to do her very best for God and desires the most superior vocation possible and hence she chooses consecrated life in the celibate chaste state - is accepted and lives out a very holy life.

Subject B:  Wants to do what God might be asking of her and decides on marriage.  She does marry and has a good marriage with children and lives out a very holy life.  She did however have the necessary qualities for the consecrated state also.

 

Both have done well and God has blessed them richly in their journey with many Graces.  Subject A chose what she wanted, while Subject B was invested or wanted what God was asking of her and spiritual direction and her own reflections indicated marriage and children. 

 

Both did choose well, though B possibly more perfect in motivation than A. Subject B wanted God's Will to be done in her.  Subject A wanted the most superior for herself and in order to serve God's Glory as best she could.

 

Sometimes in life we can do very well for The Lord and His Glory, but hindsight reveals that our motivation was not the best.  But at the time we acted according to our lights then.

 

The above, I hope, illustrates both the theological objective and subjective considerations.

 

Barbara, do you mean about motivation? I agree that this is something important and something I definitely need to keep in mind for discernment, that my motivation in the end is to put God's will above my own, whether or not His will coincides with my will. I'm often not good at doing this though.

 

Because you do have an attraction to the consecrated state in life, my advice would be to seek out a spiritual director and/or the vocations director into whatever form or community of consecrated life to which you are attracted.

 

based on what I've heard, it's really hard to live out the consecrated life without the grace given for it.

 

It is impossible to completely or effect any good whatsoever without The Grace to do so since all good has its source and origin in God "Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" James Chapter 1.

 

Why would the first person necessarily be wanting to do THEIR will? I mean, what if they chose to give their all to God simply because they felt an attraction to this which came from God, and discerned it as His will? :) I don't think that people choose religious life simply because it's superior, unless by superior they mean - wanting to give their all to God, with love, - and if God gives them an attraction to it. That's sort of what I'm saying :)

 

I hope that no person would choose religious life because it is superior.  It is a possibility however.  The reason that some choose religious life can be amazing once their real motivation comes to the surface and rather often applicants are unaware of what their real motivation actually is.  Some do enter religious life and their real motivation is not the best at all, but as they journey within the life, motivation is purified.  This is why, in discernment, the best thing to do is to have a spiritual director as well as seek out the vocations director in a particular religious order.

 

it seems that God prepares graces for people in specific vocations... like how He said to St Faustina, that He prepared graces for her in her particular convent... so I think it's a good idea to follow where God leads :)

 

Absolutely!

 

Are you talking about motivation? In that case I agree with you that our motivation should be following God's will. What I'm trying to say is that someone could agree with the Church's teaching on religious life being a higher state, but choose it because they feel it's God's will for them,

 

Sounds like sound motivation since the desire is to follow God's Will and Invitation for their life.

 

[BarbTherese]

Mary's Little Flower wrote in reply:  God's Beloved, take a look at what the Council of Trent said in the link in the original post.... it's definitively stated that celibate state is objective a higher state, and there's even an anathema attached to rejecting this. VII, a Pope, or any future Council can't change doctrine... because official doctrine doesn't change. When there's an anathema to something, that is a really serious pronouncement of what Church teaching is. What I'm trying to say is that Church teachings can't change. So what was said in Trent, continues to be true. Remember that VII didn't define dogma (in my understanding, it was more pastoral)... yet Trent did. :)

 

 

The state of celibacy is theologically above the non celibate Sacrament of Marriage, simply because the celibate state ideally embraces no intermediary but goes directly to The Lord and His Kingdom.  Marriage goes through the partner, i.e. the wife or the husband to determine God's Will for each other and for the marriage.  Hence the celibate state remains theologically above the Sacrament of Marriage and for obvious reasons.

 

Pre V2 only priesthood and/or religious life were culturally considered "vocations" per se.  Marriage as a valid and important vocation came post V2 when it was underscored by The Church as a valid and important potential call and vocation from God, along with the lay state in life per se.  Marriage as vocation has now taken root in our cultural thinking.  The lay state in life is still struggling somewhat to do so.  It takes time and effort.  

 

 I think some might have problems getting their heads around "theologically objectively superior", missing the point that nothing can be theologically objectively superior to God's Will. Hence God may call a young woman to consecrated virginity, but this does not lessen a vocation and call to The Sacrament of Marriage.  If He calls a young woman to Marriage then it is a superior call simply because it is God's Will for that person's life.  A vocation can only ever be an invitation, not a Divine Command and God's Invitations are a function of His Divine Will.  He invites to vocation, He does not command.

 

Some seem to want to stop at the objective theological determination of the various states (i.e. superior or inferior) and not take into account that nothing is superior to God's Will -  on the objective theological level as it has been discussed in this forum.

 

All from this really rickety armchair :)........or as I understand things.

Barbara, I have tried in almost every post to talk about how IF God wills a person to choose marriage, that would be their path to holiness. I'm trying to just say what my understanding of the Church teaching is. Religious life is theologically a higher state of life than marriage - which is doctrine, I am not free to debate this - and that's what I meant by "objective". Subjective in my mind means - regarding an individual person's calling, in which case they should follow their calling, and do God's will. But for those who are called to religious life, I do believe that God prepares graces for them there, so they'd have the grace to live it out well.

 

Hi MLF - I have said many times in this thead and others that I totally agree that consecrated life is higher on the objective theological scale than marriage.

 

Subject A:  Wants to do her very best for God and desires the most superior vocation possible and hence she chooses consecrated life in the celibate chaste state - is accepted and lives out a very holy life.

Subject B:  Wants to do what God might be asking of her and decides on marriage.  She does marry and has a good marriage with children and lives out a very holy life.  She did however have the necessary qualities for the consecrated state also.

 

Both have done well and God has blessed them richly in their journey with many Graces.  Subject A chose what she wanted, while Subject B was invested or wanted what God was asking of her and spiritual direction and her own reflections indicated marriage and children. 

 

Both did choose well, though B possibly more perfect in motivation than A. Subject B wanted God's Will to be done in her.  Subject A wanted the most superior for herself and in order to serve God's Glory as best she could.

 

Sometimes in life we can do very well for The Lord and His Glory, but hindsight reveals that our motivation was not the best.  But at the time we acted according to our lights then.

 

The above, I hope, illustrates both the theological objective and subjective considerations.

 

Barbara, do you mean about motivation? I agree that this is something important and something I definitely need to keep in mind for discernment, that my motivation in the end is to put God's will above my own, whether or not His will coincides with my will. I'm often not good at doing this though.

 

Because you do have an attraction to the consecrated state in life, my advice would be to seek out a spiritual director and/or the vocations director into whatever form or community of consecrated life to which you are attracted.

 

based on what I've heard, it's really hard to live out the consecrated life without the grace given for it.

 

It is impossible to completely or effect any good whatsoever without The Grace to do so since all good has its source and origin in God "Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" James Chapter 1.

 

Why would the first person necessarily be wanting to do THEIR will? I mean, what if they chose to give their all to God simply because they felt an attraction to this which came from God, and discerned it as His will? :) I don't think that people choose religious life simply because it's superior, unless by superior they mean - wanting to give their all to God, with love, - and if God gives them an attraction to it. That's sort of what I'm saying :)

 

I hope that no person would choose religious life because it is superior.  It is a possibility however.  The reason that some choose religious life can be amazing once their real motivation comes to the surface and rather often applicants are unaware of what their real motivation actually is until they actually enter religious life and then real motivations begin to surface - one of the reasons why final vows take some 6 years or so.  Some do enter religious life and their real motivation is not the best at all, but as they journey within the life, motivation is purified.  This is why, in discernment, the best thing to do is to have a spiritual director as well as seek out the vocations director in a particular religious order.

 

it seems that God prepares graces for people in specific vocations... like how He said to St Faustina, that He prepared graces for her in her particular convent... so I think it's a good idea to follow where God leads :)

 

Absolutely!

 

Are you talking about motivation? In that case I agree with you that our motivation should be following God's will. What I'm trying to say is that someone could agree with the Church's teaching on religious life being a higher state, but choose it because they feel it's God's will for them,

 

Sounds like sound motivation since the desire is to follow God's Will and Invitation for their life.  Of course a Catholic should always agree with what The Church has to state.  One can uphold absolutely, of course, that the celibate state is higher than marriage and rightly so.  But this is not their motivation for entering religious life.

 

God bless, MLF..............Barb :)

[BarbTherese]

Mary's Little Flower wrote in reply:  God's Beloved, take a look at what the Council of Trent said in the link in the original post.... it's definitively stated that celibate state is objective a higher state, and there's even an anathema attached to rejecting this. VII, a Pope, or any future Council can't change doctrine... because official doctrine doesn't change. When there's an anathema to something, that is a really serious pronouncement of what Church teaching is. What I'm trying to say is that Church teachings can't change. So what was said in Trent, continues to be true. Remember that VII didn't define dogma (in my understanding, it was more pastoral)... yet Trent did. :)

 

 

The state of celibacy is theologically above the non celibate Sacrament of Marriage, simply because the celibate state ideally embraces no intermediary but goes directly to The Lord and His Kingdom.  Marriage goes through the partner, i.e. the wife or the husband to determine God's Will for each other and for the marriage.  Hence the celibate state remains theologically above the Sacrament of Marriage and for obvious reasons.

 

Pre V2 only priesthood and/or religious life were culturally considered "vocations" per se.  Marriage as a valid and important vocation came post V2 when it was underscored by The Church as a valid and important potential call and vocation from God, along with the lay state in life per se.  Marriage as vocation has now taken root in our cultural thinking.  The lay state in life is still struggling somewhat to do so.  It takes time and effort.  

 

 I think some might have problems getting their heads around "theologically objectively superior", missing the point that nothing can be theologically objectively superior to God's Will. Hence God may call a young woman to consecrated virginity, but this does not lessen a vocation and call to The Sacrament of Marriage.  If He calls a young woman to Marriage then it is a superior call simply because it is God's Will for that person's life.  A vocation can only ever be an invitation, not a Divine Command and God's Invitations are a function of His Divine Will.  He invites to vocation, He does not command.

 

Some seem to want to stop at the objective theological determination of the various states (i.e. superior or inferior) and not take into account that nothing is superior to God's Will -  on the objective theological level as it has been discussed in this forum.

 

All from this really rickety armchair :)........or as I understand things.

Barbara, I have tried in almost every post to talk about how IF God wills a person to choose marriage, that would be their path to holiness. I'm trying to just say what my understanding of the Church teaching is. Religious life is theologically a higher state of life than marriage - which is doctrine, I am not free to debate this - and that's what I meant by "objective". Subjective in my mind means - regarding an individual person's calling, in which case they should follow their calling, and do God's will. But for those who are called to religious life, I do believe that God prepares graces for them there, so they'd have the grace to live it out well.

 

Hi MLF - I have said many times in this thead and others that I totally agree that consecrated life is higher on the objective theological scale than marriage.

 

Subject A:  Wants to do her very best for God and desires the most superior vocation possible and hence she chooses consecrated life in the celibate chaste state - is accepted and lives out a very holy life.

Subject B:  Wants to do what God might be asking of her and decides on marriage.  She does marry and has a good marriage with children and lives out a very holy life.  She did however have the necessary qualities for the consecrated state also.

 

Both have done well and God has blessed them richly in their journey with many Graces.  Subject A chose what she wanted, while Subject B was invested or wanted what God was asking of her and spiritual direction and her own reflections indicated marriage and children. 

 

Both did choose well, though B possibly more perfect in motivation than A. Subject B wanted God's Will to be done in her.  Subject A wanted the most superior for herself and in order to serve God's Glory as best she could.

 

Sometimes in life we can do very well for The Lord and His Glory, but hindsight reveals that our motivation was not the best.  But at the time we acted according to our lights then.

 

The above, I hope, illustrates both the theological objective and subjective considerations.

 

Barbara, do you mean about motivation? I agree that this is something important and something I definitely need to keep in mind for discernment, that my motivation in the end is to put God's will above my own, whether or not His will coincides with my will. I'm often not good at doing this though.

 

Because you do have an attraction to the consecrated state in life, my advice would be to seek out a spiritual director and/or the vocations director into whatever form or community of consecrated life to which you are attracted.

 

based on what I've heard, it's really hard to live out the consecrated life without the grace given for it.

 

It is impossible to completely or effect any good whatsoever without The Grace to do so since all good has its source and origin in God "Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" James Chapter 1.

 

Why would the first person necessarily be wanting to do THEIR will? I mean, what if they chose to give their all to God simply because they felt an attraction to this which came from God, and discerned it as His will? :) I don't think that people choose religious life simply because it's superior, unless by superior they mean - wanting to give their all to God, with love, - and if God gives them an attraction to it. That's sort of what I'm saying :)

 

I hope that no person would choose religious life because it is superior.  It is a possibility however.  The reason that some choose religious life can be amazing once their real motivation comes to the surface and rather often applicants are unaware of what their real motivation actually is until they actually enter religious life and then real motivations begin to surface - one of the reasons why final vows take some 6 years or so.  Some do enter religious life and their real motivation is not the best at all, but as they journey within the life, motivation is purified.  This is why, in discernment, the best thing to do is to have a spiritual director as well as seek out the vocations director in a particular religious order.

 

it seems that God prepares graces for people in specific vocations... like how He said to St Faustina, that He prepared graces for her in her particular convent... so I think it's a good idea to follow where God leads :)

 

Absolutely!

 

Are you talking about motivation? In that case I agree with you that our motivation should be following God's will. What I'm trying to say is that someone could agree with the Church's teaching on religious life being a higher state, but choose it because they feel it's God's will for them,

 

Sounds like sound motivation since the desire is to follow God's Will and Invitation for their life.  Of course a Catholic should always agree with what The Church has to state.  One can uphold absolutely, of course, that the celibate state is higher than marriage and rightly so.  But this is not their motivation for entering religious life.

 

God bless, MLF..............Barb :)

[BarbTherese]

-...............edit.................

 

Pope John Paul II, Theology of the Body: "The 'superiority' of continence to marriage never means, in the authentic tradition of the Church, a disparagement of marriage or a belittling of its essential value. It does not even imply sliding, even merely implicitly, toward Manichean positions, or a support for ways of evaluating or acting based on a Manichean understanding of the body and of sex, of marriage and procreation. The evangelical and genuinely Christian superiority of virginity, of continence, is thus dictated by the motive of the kingdom of heaven. In the words of Christ reported by Matthew 19:11—12, we find a solid basis for admitting only such superiority, while we do not find any basis whatsoever for the disparagement of marriage that could be present in the recognition of that superiority."

 

Source: http://www.religious-vocation.com/

 

 

The above is an important quote from the Theology of The Body and post V2.

 

Pre V2, if at some point we thought about religious life, then we were destined for religious life.  There was no process or journey of discerning.  One was destined for religious life, full stop.  We would get talks, sermons about how one's soul and happiness were in jeopardy if one "abandoned one's vocation".  The mere, even passing, attraction was sufficient to state that one had a religious vocation or to the priesthood. It was a scary business and some did enter rather than risk their happiness and salvation.  These are some of the things V2 sorted out bringing back our culture to original Church Teaching. 

 

Within Catholic culture pre V2, in the main, there was no notion of being called to holiness in any other vocation but religious life and/or the priesthood.  If one decided to marry, one was somehow opting out of the business of holiness.  One could embrace less-than-holiness and still save one's soul in marriage - just get over the line of salvation by following the Laws of The Church.  All that is a generalisation of what was taking place pre V2 - it does not necessarily apply to ever single case.  Certainly it was my own experience pre V2 and that of my fellow students during my primary and college years.

 

Vatican 2 sorted out confusions and did underscore that God can and does sometimes call to the laity and marriage and that this is a legitimate vocation in it's own right and a clear call to holiness and a state in life in which holiness is a just, legitimate and feasible goal with God's Grace - as with any vocation.  In fact all vocations regardless of nature are calls to holiness.  But pre V2, we heard none of this in the main, or we heard something about it behind closed doors as it were and therefore it struck our young minds as suspect.

 

It seems to me that if I enter into The Sacrament of Marriage because I have discerned that it is God's Will for my life, then I am embracing The Sacrament "for the sake of The Kingdom".  Which does beg the question what exactly is meant "for the sake of The Kingdom of Heaven"?................"Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".

[BarbTherese]

-...............edit.................

 

Pope John Paul II, Theology of the Body: "The 'superiority' of continence to marriage never means, in the authentic tradition of the Church, a disparagement of marriage or a belittling of its essential value. It does not even imply sliding, even merely implicitly, toward Manichean positions, or a support for ways of evaluating or acting based on a Manichean understanding of the body and of sex, of marriage and procreation. The evangelical and genuinely Christian superiority of virginity, of continence, is thus dictated by the motive of the kingdom of heaven. In the words of Christ reported by Matthew 19:11—12, we find a solid basis for admitting only such superiority, while we do not find any basis whatsoever for the disparagement of marriage that could be present in the recognition of that superiority."

 

Source: http://www.religious-vocation.com/

 

 

The above is an important quote from the Theology of The Body and post V2.

 

Pre V2, if at some point we thought about religious life, then we were destined for religious life.  There was no process or journey of discerning.  One was destined for religious life, full stop.  We would get talks, sermons about how one's soul and happiness were in jeopardy if one "abandoned one's vocation".  The mere, even passing, attraction was sufficient to state that one had a religious vocation or to the priesthood. It was a scary business and some did enter rather than risk their happiness and salvation.  These are some of the things V2 sorted out bringing back our culture to original Church Teaching. 

 

Within Catholic culture pre V2, in the main, there was no notion of being called to holiness in any other vocation but religious life and/or the priesthood.  If one decided to marry, one was somehow opting out of the business of holiness.  One could embrace less-than-holiness and still save one's soul in marriage - just get over the line of salvation by following the Laws of The Church.  All that is a generalisation of what was taking place pre V2 - it does not necessarily apply to ever single case.  Certainly it was my own experience pre V2 and that of my fellow students during my primary and college years.

 

Vatican 2 sorted out confusions and did underscore that God can and does sometimes call to the laity and marriage and that this is a legitimate vocation in it's own right and a clear call to holiness and a state in life in which holiness is a just, legitimate and feasible goal with God's Grace - as with any vocation.  In fact all vocations regardless of nature are calls to holiness.  But pre V2, we heard none of this in the main, or we heard something about it behind closed doors as it were and therefore it struck our young minds as suspect.

 

It seems to me that if I enter into The Sacrament of Marriage because I have discerned that it is God's Will for my life, then I am embracing The Sacrament "for the sake of The Kingdom".  Which does beg the question what exactly is meant "for the sake of The Kingdom of Heaven"?................"Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".

Mr & Mrs Martin (now Blessed Louis & Zelie, parents of St Therese of Lisieux) had both wanted to enter the celibate chaste  state.  They were advised, however, to marry.  http://www.michaeljournal.org/martins.htm

[BarbTherese]

The softwear on Phatmass is driving me nutty.  I keep getting "Bad Gateway" which means either my post is posted or it is not and hard to know which, plus it takes me a long time to actually get into Phatmass rather often.  Apologies for double post.  What I did add to my second post is important:

"It seems to me that if I enter into The Sacrament of Marriage because I have discerned that it is God's Will for my life, then I am embracing The Sacrament "for the sake of The Kingdom".  Which does beg the question what exactly is meant "for the sake of The Kingdom of Heaven"?................"Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".

Mr & Mrs Martin (now Blessed Louis & Zelie, parents of St Therese of Lisieux) had both wanted to enter the celibate chaste  state.  They were advised, however, to marry.  http://www.michaeljo...org/martins.htm "

 

 

Some do desire to love and serve God for Himself - revealed in the living out as love of neighbour.  They fall in love and discerning that this is God's Will for their life, they marry - through the duties of their lay state in life and those of marital life specifically, they can attain great holiness.  I know many married couples who strike me as very holy and saintly people.  The main goal and objective of life is holiness.

My brother had aspired to the priesthood and his wife to the Dominican religious life.  Rather they discerned further and married - are very happy, faithful Catholics, and are very big contributors to the community and the common good.  Their now four adult children are beautiful people and are a credit to themselves and to their parents.

[Laurie]

A thought has crossed my mind a few times since this thread started.

 

You know, in marriage, it’s better, objectively speaking, to have children rather than to not have them. One of the goods of marriage is the procreation and the raising of children.

 

Some people are not able to have children. Their vocations are beautiful and full as husband and wife without children. They can gain great graces by their inability to have children and they can build up the Church magnificently by carrying that cross as best they can. Subjectively, God carries out His perfect plan in their marriage without their having been blessed with children.

 

But what if a wife who could not have children resented women who could? What if her attitude was, you all think you are so wonderful because it is objectively better for children to result from a marriage! You think you are better than me because you have been given this objective blessing that I have not been given!

 

Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching about the great good that children are? Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching that, objectively, marriage is ordered towards the procreation and raising of children?

 

It’s food for thought.

 

A woman walking around with 4 beautiful children should not have to defend herself against that type of criticism. It shouldn’t be assumed that because she has, objectively, been given a great blessing that she is therefore haughty and superior.

[MarysLittleFlower]

A thought has crossed my mind a few times since this thread started.

 

You know, in marriage, it’s better, objectively speaking, to have children rather than to not have them. One of the goods of marriage is the procreation and the raising of children.

 

Some people are not able to have children. Their vocations are beautiful and full as husband and wife without children. They can gain great graces by their inability to have children and they can build up the Church magnificently by carrying that cross as best they can. Subjectively, God carries out His perfect plan in their marriage without their having been blessed with children.

 

But what if a wife who could not have children resented women who could? What if her attitude was, you all think you are so wonderful because it is objectively better for children to result from a marriage! You think you are better than me because you have been given this objective blessing that I have not been given!

 

Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching about the great good that children are? Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching that, objectively, marriage is ordered towards the procreation and raising of children?

 

It’s food for thought.

 

A woman walking around with 4 beautiful children should not have to defend herself against that type of criticism. It shouldn’t be assumed that because she has, objectively, been given a great blessing that she is therefore haughty and superior.

 

Good point Laurie! Of course, it would also be important to guard oneself against pride... but if we see all as gift (as children are) - it's easier imo :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

Barbara, I have tried in almost every post to talk about how IF God wills a person to choose marriage, that would be their path to holiness. I'm trying to just say what my understanding of the Church teaching is. Religious life is theologically a higher state of life than marriage - which is doctrine, I am not free to debate this - and that's what I meant by "objective". Subjective in my mind means - regarding an individual person's calling, in which case they should follow their calling, and do God's will. But for those who are called to religious life, I do believe that God prepares graces for them there, so they'd have the grace to live it out well.

 

Hi MLF - I have said many times in this thead and others that I totally agree that consecrated life is higher on the objective theological scale than marriage.

 

 

Barbara, do you mean about motivation? I agree that this is something important and something I definitely need to keep in mind for discernment, that my motivation in the end is to put God's will above my own, whether or not His will coincides with my will. I'm often not good at doing this though.

 

Because you do have an attraction to the consecrated state in life, my advice would be to seek out a spiritual director and/or the vocations director into whatever form or community of consecrated life to which you are attracted.

 

based on what I've heard, it's really hard to live out the consecrated life without the grace given for it.

 

It is impossible to completely or effect any good whatsoever without The Grace to do so since all good has its source and origin in God "Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" James Chapter 1.

 

Why would the first person necessarily be wanting to do THEIR will? I mean, what if they chose to give their all to God simply because they felt an attraction to this which came from God, and discerned it as His will? :) I don't think that people choose religious life simply because it's superior, unless by superior they mean - wanting to give their all to God, with love, - and if God gives them an attraction to it. That's sort of what I'm saying :)

 

I hope that no person would choose religious life because it is superior.  It is a possibility however.  The reason that some choose religious life can be amazing once their real motivation comes to the surface and rather often applicants are unaware of what their real motivation actually is until they actually enter religious life and then real motivations begin to surface - one of the reasons why final vows take some 6 years or so.  Some do enter religious life and their real motivation is not the best at all, but as they journey within the life, motivation is purified.  This is why, in discernment, the best thing to do is to have a spiritual director as well as seek out the vocations director in a particular religious order.

 

it seems that God prepares graces for people in specific vocations... like how He said to St Faustina, that He prepared graces for her in her particular convent... so I think it's a good idea to follow where God leads :)

 

Absolutely!

 

Are you talking about motivation? In that case I agree with you that our motivation should be following God's will. What I'm trying to say is that someone could agree with the Church's teaching on religious life being a higher state, but choose it because they feel it's God's will for them,

 

Sounds like sound motivation since the desire is to follow God's Will and Invitation for their life.  Of course a Catholic should always agree with what The Church has to state.  One can uphold absolutely, of course, that the celibate state is higher than marriage and rightly so.  But this is not their motivation for entering religious life.

 

God bless, MLF..............Barb :)

Barbara, I agree with your replies! :) nothing to debate about haha :P

[MarysLittleFlower]

I know what you mean about the "Bad Gateway" thing... it kept showing up for me too and then I end up with double posts ;) 

[BarbTherese]

You know, in marriage, it’s better, objectively speaking, to have children rather than to not have them. One of the goods of marriage is the procreation and the raising of children.

 

 

I thought your points were well raised also, Laurie

 

Some people are not able to have children. Their vocations are beautiful and full as husband and wife without children. They can gain great graces by their inability to have children and they can build up the Church magnificently by carrying that cross as best they can. Subjectively, God carries out His perfect plan in their marriage without their having been blessed with children.

 

This is what I had been trying to get across.  The superiority of God's Will in all things - and that The Cross and suffering is central to our lives and at the heart of our Faith.  Suffering can be made holy and redemptive, depending on how it is borne.  Any kind of suffering in life whatsoever.

But what if a wife who could not have children resented women who could? What if her attitude was, you all think you are so wonderful because it is objectively better for children to result from a marriage! You think you are better than me because you have been given this objective blessing that I have not been given!

 

I have a saying for myself "I can't stop others from thinking, nor change what they think very often".  If a woman, who was unable to have children. thought as you indicate above.  She would need, I would think, to be instructed/informed further on the great mystery of God's Will in life and the centrality of The Cross in our Catholic spirituality.

Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching about the great good that children are? Would that be the right response to the Church’s teaching that, objectively, marriage is ordered towards the procreation and raising of children?

 

 

No, it would not be the correct attitude and perspective on particular circumstances of others.  Circumstances too come about through God's Divine Providence or His Will.

This is what I meant when I said in a post that ego is alive and well in The Church.  All too often it is about "me" and not what God Wills and what He does provide - in both a negative and positive sense i.e. the common good.

A woman walking around with 4 beautiful children should not have to defend herself against that type of criticism. It shouldn’t be assumed that because she has, objectively, been given a great blessing that she is therefore haughty and superior.

 

 

Ideally, she should not have to defend herself and ideally would not.  But then life is sometimes not fair at all (circumstances come about through God's Divine Providence and very often complete mystery).

 

I don't think that "superior/inferior" belong in the language of spirituality applied to persons on the subjective level.  Superior/inferior might be helpful to theologians in their quite objective considerations, but sometimes theological understandings can be misunderstood.  I don't think however that any theologian anywhere would dispute the absolute superiority (transcended by nothing) of The Will of God.  God choose this person for this way of life and another for a different way of life.  The superiority of God's Will is absolute, while there is a quite valid and understandable scale of superiority re the celibate and non-celibate states and for reasons that seem to be quite logical and reasonable on an objective theological scale.

Edited August 23, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Barbara, I agree with your replies! :) nothing to debate about haha :P

 

A welcome breath of fresh air huh, MLF :)

I've been saying the same thing right throughout all the threads and my posts relating to this subject.  Perhaps what I have been writing has been misunderstood and easily done.

[abrideofChrist]

God's will is superior, the question is how to live it when you choose the wrong vocation to which you were not called.  This is what St. Alphonsus and the other Doctors of the Church warn about.  They say it can be difficult or even impossible to live in a vocation God didn't design you to be in.  The priest I mentioned earlier chose the priesthood ONLY because it was "superior" and apparently with no thought as to whether HE was called.  If person A didn't have a vocation to consecrated life, God might grant her barely enough grace to live through with her commitment, whereas He would have showered her with abundant graces for living out marriage.  It's not that she can't get holy, but that it is tougher because she didn't have the divine gift to begin with.

[BarbTherese]

God's will is superior, the question is how to live it when you choose the wrong vocation to which you were not called.  This is what St. Alphonsus and the other Doctors of the Church warn about.  They say it can be difficult or even impossible to live in a vocation God didn't design you to be in.  The priest I mentioned earlier chose the priesthood ONLY because it was "superior" and apparently with no thought as to whether HE was called.  If person A didn't have a vocation to consecrated life, God might grant her barely enough grace to live through with her commitment, whereas He would have showered her with abundant graces for living out marriage.  It's not that she can't get holy, but that it is tougher because she didn't have the divine gift to begin with.

 

Hi again BoC.

I don't think that the process of finding oneself in the wrong vocation, or choosing the wrong vocation, is a simple straightforward always process of just choosing deliberately the wrong vocation in the first place.  There is a vast difference morally between the person who chooses the wrong vocation quite deliberately, and the one who does so without fully realizing what they are doing, or even realizing at all that they are taking up the wrong vocation.

            Your post does underscore thegreat importance of discernment - and that it is a serious journey that every Catholic adult, on reaching adult stage, must undertake: "How is The Lord asking me to spend the rest of my life?"  This is a question every adult Catholic must ask - certainly at the outset of adulthood (some ask earlier, some even know the answer earlier).  Sometimes it is a question asked more than once in a lifetime's pilgrimage here.

 

I think that on Phatmass, the discernment journey is taken very seriously indeed - and very often excellent advice is conveyed and often from members, or ex members, of religious orders themselves.  Hence speaking from experience.

 

Refer re the above to my post here : http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130790-homily-marriage-is-good-but-celibacy-is-better/page-10#entry2617623

 

And to an excellent work by Josef Bolin (available online here http://www.pathsoflove.com/paths-of-love-details.html ).  I actually bought this book quite a few years ago and still have it.

 

 Biography J Bolin : http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/about-paths-of-love/  

 

The book did set me out on a search to research what vocation did mean, what The Church had to state - and the discernment journey generally.  I found it an excellent work in that it quotes the saints, Doctors of The Church and contemporary Popes especially - and then breaks things down into understandable terms today.

[BarbTherese]

God's will is superior, the question is how to live it when you choose the wrong vocation to which you were not called

 

 

 

There is nothing whatsoever The Good Lord will not forgive - and in His Forgiving is all the Graces necessary to holiness restored.  If I should find that I am in the wrong vocation, then I approach The Sacrament of Reconciliation.  And were it me, I would also be seeking sound spiritual direction.  Finding oneself in the wrong vocation (not by deliberate choice) is a truly heart rending experience, I know, and it may take a journey (ideally with spiritual direction ) to resolve the whole issue psychologically and spiritually.  One needs a positive attitude and perspective on suffering and The Cross, which is at the heart and soul of our Catholic Faith.

 

If one finds oneself in the position of being in the wrong vocation, the situation cannot be walked around, over or under - it is a situation that one must go through and work through, knowing that The Lord is with one.

 

But we should never ever feel, nor proclaim, that The Lord withholds His Graces from a sincere and repentant heart (not stating that you are doing this BoC!).  We should never ever be made to feel that Divine Providence (The Lord's forever providing for our holiness) has abandoned us, no matter how terrible our failure followed by sincere repentance and sorrow.

 

Finding oneself in the wrong vocation for whatever reason is most often a way of suffering.  It is not the way of abandonment.  It is The Cross in one's life, taking possibly a form one had never anticipated for sure.