Perseverence Vs Acceptance?

[AccountDeleted]

I am posting this in Debate Table instead of Transmundane Lane, simply because I think there may be differing opinions.

 

 

I just wondered what people generally think about persevering at something vs accepting what 'appears' to be God's will because of obstacles.

 

In scripture Jesus talks about the widow who wanted justice so she persevered (pestered the judge) until she got what she wanted. Jesus also told the story about the man who needed bread for a guest who arrived in the middle of the night so he persevered (pestered his neighbor) until he got what he wanted.

 

The moral of these stories seems to be that we need to persevere (pester God in prayer) until we get what we want.

 

Now, of course, it is not always possible to get what we want in this life - for example, a paraplegic isn't going to be a dancer with the Royal Ballet (although they might be able to become a choreographer or teacher if they already knew how to dance before they became paralyzed). So I am really talking about when something is not impossible but perhaps not probable.

 

 

 

And yet on the other side of the fence, we are also encouraged to 'accept God's will' for our lives and often people advise us to stop trying for something if we have had many setbacks or rejections in the attempt because: 'It obviously isn't God's will.'

 

 

So, the debate topic is, at what point does perseverance become a stubborn refusal to accept God's will? And how does one know when this point is reached? As long as there is any possibility for success, is one encouraged to make the attempt, or should there be a point at which one gives up?

 

Jesus seems to be saying that IF we persevere, then God will respond - but we also heard it said that sometimes the answer is no.

 

Discuss please....

 

[Maggyie]

Persisting to get what we want will only work if it's ultimately what God wants, too.

 

God does respond to perseverance - but as you said, sometimes the response is no.

 

How to tell the difference?

 

Well, the danger in pursuing a "possible but improbable" goal is that you miss the "possible AND probable" thing that God IS saying yes to.

 

So I think the key is to explore the experience of God's no. Pretend for a minute that you know beyond a shadow of a a doubt that it's time to give up pursuit of your goal. The BVM appears to you and tells you to knock it off or something. God's plans are different. What would those plans be?

 

Give your heart permission to imagine what your life would look like if you knew for sure that acceptance is what God wants from you. Take some time to invest emotionally in this vision of the future and in developing a new dream for yourself.

 

When this alternate path is fully developed (intellectually at least) take a step back. Does your old plan A really still call out to you, now that you've broken the spell of it being THE Plan A? Sometimes it's impossible to realize the futility or unsuitability of Plan A without having a full-throated Plan B to compare it to. Part of hearing God's call, is giving him that permission to call!

 

I'm good at giving this advice but not taking it.

[AccountDeleted]

Persisting to get what we want will only work if it's ultimately what God wants, too.

 

God does respond to perseverance - but as you said, sometimes the response is no.

 

How to tell the difference?

 

Well, the danger in pursuing a "possible but improbable" goal is that you miss the "possible AND probable" thing that God IS saying yes to.

 

So I think the key is to explore the experience of God's no. Pretend for a minute that you know beyond a shadow of a a doubt that it's time to give up pursuit of your goal. The BVM appears to you and tells you to knock it off or something. God's plans are different. What would those plans be?

 

Give your heart permission to imagine what your life would look like if you knew for sure that acceptance is what God wants from you. Take some time to invest emotionally in this vision of the future and in developing a new dream for yourself.

 

When this alternate path is fully developed (intellectually at least) take a step back. Does your old plan A really still call out to you, now that you've broken the spell of it being THE Plan A? Sometimes it's impossible to realize the futility or unsuitability of Plan A without having a full-throated Plan B to compare it to. Part of hearing God's call, is giving him that permission to call!

 

I'm good at giving this advice but not taking it.

 

 

Interesting point of view but doesn't quite deal with what I'm talking about. I think you might be dealing with some specific situation when I am trying to discuss something a lot more general and philosophical. I understand that specifics are needed when discussing anything philosophical because we live in a real world so that's why I used the two situations from scripture.

 

Perhaps you could explain your point of view using one of these?

 

For example, for the man who needed bread in the middle of the night. Are you saying he should have given up and then perhaps tried with another neighbor? Or are you saying that he should have given up and asked his wife to make some more bread? Are you saying that maybe if he stopped knocking and went home and just 'opened himself up to God's will' that someone would have come to his door with bread? Or... what exactly do you mean?

 

As for the woman who pestered the judge - what do you think her alternatives were to achieving justice? And should she have given up pestering the judge to try one of these? Jesus didn't mention alternatives, so I am wondering if perhaps there were none.

 

 

I didn't mean this to me about me personally - it was more one of those things that one wonders when pondering life, the universe and everything. I know how I would react because I know me very well. I'd be knocking on that door and bothering that judge til I got the same result that they did. I am a very persistent person. I just wondered what others think and why.

[let_go_let_God]

You use the example of the paraplegic becoming a choreographer as being improbable but not impossible.

 

The person who is persistently praying to reach a better state in life by winning the lottery may miss the opportunity for better employment by throwing out the want ads in the paper trying to see what the lottery numbers were the night before.

 

The persistent widow and the friend at the door show us that persistence pays off when the outcome is as we anticipate. The parables are followed with the Jesus teaching on what giving good gifts look like. God's not going to let the person praying to win the lottery to win if it means endangering their soul, that would not be a good gift. Sometimes we miss the good gifts because we don't look for the options that aren't in line with our desires.

 

God bless-

LGLG

[AccountDeleted]

You use the example of the paraplegic becoming a choreographer as being improbable but not impossible.

 

The person who is persistently praying to reach a better state in life by winning the lottery may miss the opportunity for better employment by throwing out the want ads in the paper trying to see what the lottery numbers were the night before.

 

The persistent widow and the friend at the door show us that persistence pays off when the outcome is as we anticipate. The parables are followed with the Jesus teaching on what giving good gifts look like. God's not going to let the person praying to win the lottery to win if it means endangering their soul, that would not be a good gift. Sometimes we miss the good gifts because we don't look for the options that aren't in line with our desires.

 

God bless-

LGLG

 

 

Once again I am not understanding the response. Perhaps I haven't expressed myself very well and that is why I can't really relate the responses to what I am asking. I'm not sure.

 

The paraplegic example was to demonstrate an impossible situation. It is impossible for the person to become a dancer, therefore they have no other choice but to accept that it is not God's will for them. It is not at all improbable for a paraplegic to become a choreographer. I have known choreographers who were former dancers in their youth but when they could no longer dance, they could still do choreography or even teach.

 

In the two scripture examples it is quite possible for them to get what they want, but they have to persevere at it to do so.

 

So I guess what I am saying is that sometimes people say (or believe) that it must NOT be God's will if something is incredibly difficult to achieve (not impossible). I am not talking about passive things like winning the lottery, as that doesn't require perseverance to achieve - it is random chance. A person can play every week and never win while another person plays once and wins.

 

So what am I talking about? Well, I don't see anywhere in scripture (but am happy to have someone show me) where Jesus says to give up if something is incredibly difficult because it must not be God's will. In fact, he says the opposite (to me) when he talks about how if we had faith the size of a mustard seed, we could tell the mountain to move and it would. In fact, when Peter walked on the water and then sank, Jesus didn't say 'Oh it must not have been God's will.' - He said, 'You of little faith. Why did you doubt?' And for most of us, walking on water seems impossible, not just improbable!

 

So at what point should someone give up and accept that something is God's will? Only when it is impossible - or not even then?

 

I just find it fascinating.

[Lilllabettt]

I don't think it matters if a task is easy, hard, improbable or impossible. Perseverance works if what you're persevering towards is God's will. 

 

Jesus flat out told Peter to come to Him - walking on water is what He wanted from Peter.

God wants hungry people to have food and women to have justice.

A paraplegic could be a choreographer, or even a dancer -- if it is God's will that they learn to walk and then learn to dance.

 

If I'm sure that God wants something, I should persevere FOREVER in trying to do it. 

That's the rub - how do we know God wants something, or if its just our own desire coming through?

We know God wants the good. We also know He speaks His will through circumstances.

 

If I'm some guy with a starving guest, I know God wants him and all hungry people to have food. Does He want me to go badger my neighbor? Maybe. I try it, I push, I try every which way.  But the door stays shut. Maybe God doesn't want me to get food from my neighbor. But God still wants hungry people to have food!  Does He will for me to go wake up my wife? Maybe. I try it. But she doesn't wake up! She took a sleeping pill and is out cold. I could stand there and shake my wife till kingdom come. But apparently God doesn't want me to get food from her.  That door is shut. Maybe God's will is for me to try another neighbor? Maybe God wants me to break out the breadmaker and do it myself? I know God wants the hungry to have food. Circumstances will speak to me about how He wants me to make that happen.

 

If I'm a paraplegic, I don't know if it's Gods will for me to be a dancer, or a choreographer. I don't know if He wills for me to walk again. I DO know He wants me to work as hard as I can to be as healthy as I can be.  I DO know He wants me to be an inspiration to others.  My life's journey is about trying doors, seeing which will open, and discovering how God is going to allow me to accomplish His will.

[Sponsa-Christi]

This is a really interesting question. I’ve often wondered the same thing myself, especially when you read about saints like John of the Cross or Teresa of Avila.

 

I imagine that if they were somehow on Phatmass today talking about their vocations, a number of us would probably chime in to say things like: “Look, don’t you think that the whole being imprisoned-by-your-confreres/having-problems-with-the-Inquisition-thing might possibly be a sign that God isn’t actually calling you to reform the Carmelites? Maybe God is really calling you just to be a faithful friar/nun where you already are?”

 

But the thing that gets me is that, from an outsider’s perspective, this would be totally sensible advice! It’s only in retrospect that we can say confidently that Sts. John and Teresa were indeed following God’s will by persevering through a seemingly impossible situation.

[TIWW]

When you initially spoke about having to leave WVH, you spoke about the pain of being in a failed relationship. This is not a failed relationship with God, but a failed relationship to be in community with this Carmel. I thought when you were going in again, how persistent you were in pursuing what you thought was to be your vocation to Carmel.
You have had the “idea” of being a Carmelite in your vision for a long time. If you had been asked to leave from these various Carmels, and none of the time was it your choice, I’d say well God is making His way clear. After your last experience I thought that. However, some of these leaving choices were made by you, and you had legitimate reasons for believing you did not belong there. If you think you are attracted to a very “faithful” Carmels, it seems that both Kirk Edge and WVH, while abiding by the 1990’s rule, enforce lack of flexibility of life, thinking and prayer as well. It is one thing to adhere to a rule very strictly, it is quite another in my mind for for a person to try to control and influence one’s thinking and personal relationship with God. (perhaps what makes you more of a Carmelite, and me more a Benedictines in approach to God.) The issues of the austerity, ancient tradition, and the culture of the Carmels you chose, left little room for any kind of larger vision of living the life, the which many lovely Carmelites allow and even promote with a little more trust that the individual can take some personal responsibility as adults. This is because these women live in the present day, and acknowledge the psychological, social and spiritual options available to allow a woman to live the life. If the nuns in the Carmels you chose do not take any of this into consideration, and live life like the 1500’s with a rigid and unshakable clinging to what “they know” and what is “tradition” It is precisely in these kinds of situations where the lifestyle does or can become cult-like, and new members are not allowed to have or express their own ideas, experiences or opinions. Any new idea or concept will never be accepted, because the “this is how it is and this is how it will always be,” attitude prevails. I believe these communities will die a natural death, just like many of the active sisters, who are not faithful to their original charism will likely die out. There are several healthy Carmels in the UK and the US.
The Church is a dynamic entity. The Holy Spirit works through it’s Faithful members, the Counsels ( ie Vatican II)and New Communities which develop to meet the current needs of the Church. And as others have mentioned,God does answer our prayers and sometimes the answer is NO. We have to have the ability to Listen in prayer to what is our heart's desire and what is God's.

[TIWW]

Sorry, unable to edit errors made

[AccountDeleted]

I don't think it matters if a task is easy, hard, improbable or impossible. Perseverance works if what you're persevering towards is God's will. 

 

Jesus flat out told Peter to come to Him - walking on water is what He wanted from Peter.

God wants hungry people to have food and women to have justice.

A paraplegic could be a choreographer, or even a dancer -- if it is God's will that they learn to walk and then learn to dance.

 

If I'm sure that God wants something, I should persevere FOREVER in trying to do it. 

That's the rub - how do we know God wants something, or if its just our own desire coming through?

We know God wants the good. We also know He speaks His will through circumstances.

 

If I'm some guy with a starving guest, I know God wants him and all hungry people to have food. Does He want me to go badger my neighbor? Maybe. I try it, I push, I try every which way.  But the door stays shut. Maybe God doesn't want me to get food from my neighbor. But God still wants hungry people to have food!  Does He will for me to go wake up my wife? Maybe. I try it. But she doesn't wake up! She took a sleeping pill and is out cold. I could stand there and shake my wife till kingdom come. But apparently God doesn't want me to get food from her.  That door is shut. Maybe God's will is for me to try another neighbor? Maybe God wants me to break out the breadmaker and do it myself? I know God wants the hungry to have food. Circumstances will speak to me about how He wants me to make that happen.

 

If I'm a paraplegic, I don't know if it's Gods will for me to be a dancer, or a choreographer. I don't know if He wills for me to walk again. I DO know He wants me to work as hard as I can to be as healthy as I can be.  I DO know He wants me to be an inspiration to others.  My life's journey is about trying doors, seeing which will open, and discovering how God is going to allow me to accomplish His will.

 

 

And here we have the heart of the matter! How does one determine when it is God's will, and at what point do we say that perhaps it is not God's will? When Peter fell, he doubted - Jesus said to come and Peter did, but at some point he determined that what he was already doing was impossible, so he stopped believing he could do it. Was it God's will that Peter fell? Obviously not or Jesus wouldn't have said that he had little faith and asked why he doubted.

 

So you have come to the very essence of why I started this thread -- WHEN do we know that it is perseverance and when do we decide that it is NOT God's will?

 

Now I have my own ideas about this, not all simple, but there is one basic indicator I think. And that comes from discernment of spirits anyway. Is what we are doing helping us to love God more, to come closer to Him and to love others more? Is what we are doing leading to an increase in faith, hope and charity? Or are we becoming resentful, bitter, disillusioned by our efforts, and losing faith in God's goodness?

 

Jesus doesn't say HOW the woman appealed to judge or HOW the man appealed to his neighbor - only that they persevered (because that was the lesson He was teaching at the time). Were they humble in their efforts rather than being demanding and aggressive? Did they succeed in their efforts because they were persistent rather than preemptory? Even though Jesus talks about perseverance, He doesn't say anything about the method by which one perseveres....

 

 

 

This is a really interesting question. I’ve often wondered the same thing myself, especially when you read about saints like John of the Cross or Teresa of Avila.

 

I imagine that if they were somehow on Phatmass today talking about their vocations, a number of us would probably chime in to say things like: “Look, don’t you think that the whole being imprisoned-by-your-confreres/having-problems-with-the-Inquisition-thing might possibly be a sign that God isn’t actually calling you to reform the Carmelites? Maybe God is really calling you just to be a faithful friar/nun where you already are?”

 

But the thing that gets me is that, from an outsider’s perspective, this would be totally sensible advice! It’s only in retrospect that we can say confidently that Sts. John and Teresa were indeed following God’s will by persevering through a seemingly impossible situation.

 

 

Yes, this is also one of the things that has me interested. When is it heroic virtue to continue in the face of all opposition and when is it simply what we call here in Australia bl**dy-mindedness (I don't know if this is considered rude in some places - it is common here) - or trying to get one's own way no matter what. We can say that John and Teresa (and many other saints) were doing God's will -- we can say that now. But perhaps even they had doubts during all of their struggles. Teresa had her visions and ecstasies to guide her, but John was left in darkness (spiritual and physical) for nearly a year in that cell. Out of that pain and suffering was born the Spiritual Canticle but there must have been times when he wondered if he was doing God's will (maybe not - I don't know his thoughts).

 

But certainly today we seem to give up at almost the least sign of opposition, seeing in it God trying to tell us we are going in the wrong direction. Perhaps what He is trying to do is to test our resolve and our commitment. There are certainly many examples in scripture of people being tested (in the sense of being forged and shaped) by God before they were allowed to proceed with what He had asked of them.

 

For me, at least, this means that it is important not to base my discernment of God's will on all of the random thoughts and ideas of others. Not because they might not have valuable thoughts but because God doesn't ask the same thing of every person, so what one person might see as a sign that something is not God's will, another might see as another step along the way to trusting in Him.

 

 

When you initially spoke about having to leave WVH, you spoke about the pain of being in a failed relationship. This is not a failed relationship with God, but a failed relationship to be in community with this Carmel. I thought when you were going in again, how persistent you were in pursuing what you thought was to be your vocation to Carmel.
You have had the “idea” of being a Carmelite in your vision for a long time. If you had been asked to leave from these various Carmels, and none of the time was it your choice, I’d say well God is making His way clear. After your last experience I thought that. However, some of these leaving choices were made by you, and you had legitimate reasons for believing you did not belong there. If you think you are attracted to a very “faithful” Carmels, it seems that both Kirk Edge and WVH, while abiding by the 1990’s rule, enforce lack of flexibility of life, thinking and prayer as well. It is one thing to adhere to a rule very strictly, it is quite another in my mind for for a person to try to control and influence one’s thinking and personal relationship with God. (perhaps what makes you more of a Carmelite, and me more a Benedictines in approach to God.) The issues of the austerity, ancient tradition, and the culture of the Carmels you chose, left little room for any kind of larger vision of living the life, the which many lovely Carmelites allow and even promote with a little more trust that the individual can take some personal responsibility as adults. This is because these women live in the present day, and acknowledge the psychological, social and spiritual options available to allow a woman to live the life. If the nuns in the Carmels you chose do not take any of this into consideration, and live life like the 1500’s with a rigid and unshakable clinging to what “they know” and what is “tradition” It is precisely in these kinds of situations where the lifestyle does or can become cult-like, and new members are not allowed to have or express their own ideas, experiences or opinions. Any new idea or concept will never be accepted, because the “this is how it is and this is how it will always be,” attitude prevails. I believe these communities will die a natural death, just like many of the active sisters, who are not faithful to their original charism will likely die out. There are several healthy Carmels in the UK and the US.
The Church is a dynamic entity. The Holy Spirit works through it’s Faithful members, the Counsels ( ie Vatican II)and New Communities which develop to meet the current needs of the Church. And as others have mentioned,God does answer our prayers and sometimes the answer is NO. We have to have the ability to Listen in prayer to what is our heart's desire and what is God's.

 

I wanted this thread to be more general than just my vocation experiences - that's why I kept the examples impersonal. But to address some of your comments let me say that at no time over the past 6 years have I felt that I have been going 'against' God's will. I would hardly have chosen to walk a path that I thought was directly opposed to Him. Whether I have been mistaken or not is up to Him to decide. But each situation has had its own indicators that I was where I belonged AT THE TIME. The hard thing about discerning God's will is that we can't see the bigger picture. I often think of poor Abraham and the many years that God tested him, especially with regard to having a son. Abraham did doubt at one point so took matters into his own hands and the result was Ishmael. Finally, when he did get the promised son, Isaac, God asks him to kill him! But by this time, even though Abraham would have found this the most painful experience of his long life, he had been through so much with God, that he trusted Him and did what he was asked even if he didn't understand it.

 

But to get back to the topic - whether it is through our own limitations, or through the actions of others, obstacles do arise. St John, as was mentioned before, was literally held prisoner by others who were 'inflexible' and who sought to 'control and influence [his] thinking and personal relationship with God'. Today one is not usually held a physical prisoner, but there are situations and people who can make one feel as if they are in prison. Is this a sign that a particular situation is not God's will or simply a means of testing and strengthening one's relationship with God? John didn't stay in his prison forever, saying to himself, 'Wow, this must be God's will.' He didn't give in to the temptation to renounce the reform, thinking that if it was so hard it must not be God's will. He may have had his doubts and fears but he held fast and finally he escaped and ran away. Some situations may require that we move away from them in order to move closer to God. But does that mean that our original intention (in John's case, the reform of Carmel) is not God's will? He didn't think so, and history has proven him right.

 

I prefer to think of obstacles as stepping stones along the path. On the Camino, which I walked recently, the mountains paths were very stony and difficult on the steep ascents and descents and I had to be careful not to turn an ankle or fall and break a bone. Navigation around the obstacles was unavoidable to proceed. Sometimes there were alternative paths and I had to choose between things like walking in mud or walking over stones. Mud is slippery, stones are treacherous. But I still had to keep walking if I wanted to reach the next town and eventually my goal. I guess that is how I am seeing this whole will of God thing. As long as my objective is clear, then it is simply a matter of choosing which path to take, but there are going to be obstacles no matter which one I choose.

 

What I have often heard though - and this is probably why I started this whole thread, is that if there are too many stones or too much mud, that MUST mean that it isn't God's will to walk the path. But if one is intent on reaching a destination, then what are the alternatives? Sit down by the side of the road and wait? Walk back the way one started? Head for another destination? But even that way is bound to have stones and mud....

 

So to sum up - I agree that the whole point of knowing when something is perseverance and when it is sheer stubbornness is whether or not something is God's will. And therein lies the rub.... what is God's will?  Then it is time for discernment of spirits - and this will be a lifelong task. Thanks for all the input everyone. I just felt like exploring this a little.

[AccountDeleted]

 

A paraplegic could be a choreographer, or even a dancer -- if it is God's will that they learn to walk and then learn to dance.

 

 

 

I forgot to comment on this point -- yes, all things are possible for God. Otherwise Peter couldn't have walked on the water! Thanks for reminding me of that.

[tinytherese]

Even if these people in these parable of Jesus actually existed (which they likely didn't and even then that's not the point,) the point of the parables and in fact all off His parables were the means He used to communicate the theme of perseverence.

 

Perhaps Jesus did preach to His disciples on how to discern if something is God's will or not. 

 

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (21:25).

 

Perhaps there are some situations where perseverence is the answer and other situations where it isn't. We can't always rely on the experiences of others-even saints because we are not them. Their circumstances and ours are not the same. To paraphrase what I've read somewhere in the past, there's only one St. Teresa of Avila and you're not her. God wants a St. (insert your name here).

 

This is where a good spiritual director would come in handy to suggest how a particular individual should go about a specific situation.

 

I think that in the case of the widow that the judge was her only option for protection against her enemies during that time period. Maybe the man without bread had tried to make the bread himself or had tried doing so in the past but knew that he couldn't do it. Maybe he tried waking his wife, but she couldn't be woken. Perhaps he only had one neighbor within a reasonable distance from his house. I get the sense that he had tried every other possible option and that that neighbor was the only one left.

[AccountDeleted]

 

Even if these people in these parable of Jesus actually existed (which they likely didn't and even then that's not the point,) the point of the parables and in fact all off His parables were the means He used to communicate the theme of perseverence.

 

Perhaps Jesus did preach to His disciples on how to discern if something is God's will or not. 

 

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (21:25).

 

Perhaps there are some situations where perseverence is the answer and other situations where it isn't. We can't always rely on the experiences of others-even saints because we are not them. Their circumstances and ours are not the same. To paraphrase what I've read somewhere in the past, there's only one St. Teresa of Avila and you're not her. God wants a St. (insert your name here).

 

This is where a good spiritual director would come in handy to suggest how a particular individual should go about a specific situation.

 

I think that in the case of the widow that the judge was her only option for protection against her enemies during that time period. Maybe the man without bread had tried to make the bread himself or had tried doing so in the past but knew that he couldn't do it. Maybe he tried waking his wife, but she couldn't be woken. Perhaps he only had one neighbor within a reasonable distance from his house. I get the sense that he had tried every other possible option and that that neighbor was the only one left.

 

 

 

Well, perhaps it is true that there are some situations where perseverance is the answer and others where it is not, but I am not quite so sure about that. It might be that perseverance is always the answer, but it manifests itself in different ways. I kind of see perseverance as simply being trust in God, no matter what happens. Because, after all, even if one is persevering, the situation doesn't stay stagnant and unmoving - there are always choices to make (even very small ones) along the way, and sometimes one even has to back track.

 

There is a very good book called 'The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry' by Rachel Joyce in which a man learns that a friend is dying of cancer. He sets out to mail a letter to here and then decides to walk to her instead and amends the letter to say 'I am walking to you. Wait for me.' meaning that she was not to die until he got there. His walk turns into a pilgrimage of over 600 miles even though he left home without any preparation or training and equipment. He has various experiences along the way and has to face all the pains of his life, and the pains of others, along the way. He perseveres to the end, but the result is not what he set out to do.

 

I'm still thinking a lot about this topic but at the moment, for me, perseverance is about never giving up trusting in God, even if there are twists and turns along the way. Like Harold Fry, I don't intend to give up my walk (even though he was sorely attempted to do so many times) no matter how hard it gets. The end result may not be what I expected, but it's the perseverance that will see me through to whatever God has planned for me.