Inefficacy Of The Sacraments

[Apteka]

Hello Phatmass,

 

I have been wondering about the theology surrounding the sacraments and what it would imply if it were true. If I stepped into a Catholic church and received what is purported to be the blood, soul, and divinity of God incarnate, would that not stir some sort of supernatural effect in me? Should not some incredible sensation overcome my whole being, and I radiate some blinding aura that would utterly transform my life? Apparently the answer is no, and I see folks consume the host with the exact effect of what it appears to be, an ordinary wafer. Perhaps their personal belief may stimulate some psychological experience, but nothing extraordinary. So my question to you folks is, where is the power in these sacraments? Why do you believe they are something more than mere rituals?

 

Aptekarz

[abon12]

Faith. 

[CrossCuT]

Hello Phatmass,

 

I have been wondering about the theology surrounding the sacraments and what it would imply if it were true. If I stepped into a Catholic church and received what is purported to be the blood, soul, and divinity of God incarnate, would that not stir some sort of supernatural effect in me? Should not some incredible sensation overcome my whole being, and I radiate some blinding aura that would utterly transform my life? Apparently the answer is no, and I see folks consume the host with the exact effect of what it appears to be, an ordinary wafer. Perhaps their personal belief may stimulate some psychological experience, but nothing extraordinary. So my question to you folks is, where is the power in these sacraments? Why do you believe they are something more than mere rituals?

 

Aptekarz

 

I think you get out of it what you put into it.

If your heart and soul are closed and skeptical, then its likely that little will stir you.

However we do believe the Holy Spirit can open and change hearts but maybe its just not the right time yet.

Really depends on the person and where they are at in their Spiritual life.

 

If you go in thinking "Trollolololololol derp the Eucharist LOL" then I dont think its going to mean much either way. However if someone REALLY wanted to know what this is all about and approached it in the appropriate manner and prepared (ei RCIA) then I think it would mean more.

[Anomaly]

So my question to you folks is, where is the power in these sacraments? Why do you believe they are something more than mere rituals?

Aptekarz

Briefly, Catholic theology does not teach there is necessarily physical effects of sacramental graces. Physical effect would be the exception and would be an extraordinary gift from God. Spiritual effect is a different matter. Toss in human psyche and understand people often perceive what they look for.

[Apteka]

Briefly, Catholic theology does not teach there is necessarily physical effects of sacramental graces. Physical effect would be the exception and would be an extraordinary gift from God. Spiritual effect is a different matter. Toss in human psyche and understand people often perceive what they look for.

 

What spiritual effects are to be expected?

[Anomaly]

What spiritual effects are to be expected?

Depends upon the Sacrament. Eucharist, which you mentioned, brings you spiritually closer to god and helps you spiritually be more holy or justified. One of the many Catholics here will prop ably add to that. I'm knowledgeable but not Catholic

[Apteka]

It all sounds like a very complicated theory for something that may not even be there.

[MithLuin]

It's an example of God's humility that he reduces Himself to something easily overlooked or discounted and offers Himself to us in this small form.  If you want flashing lights, look to the Wizard of Oz.  

[Apteka]

It's an example of God's humility that he reduces Himself to something easily overlooked or discounted and offers Himself to us in this small form.  If you want flashing lights, look to the Wizard of Oz.  

 

The Bible does record countless supernatural events associated with the Ark of the Covenant though. It's just strange that something so extraordinary doesn't elicit an incredible experience. Catholics are forced to believe their rituals have a passive effect, whereas other spiritualties require active participation in ascension and they do possess actual supernatural phenomena.

[MithLuin]

Oh...okay.  I don't associate efficacy with bells and whistles.  I wasn't suggesting that God can't make a spectacle, merely that He doesn't need to.  

[ChristinaTherese]

Hello Phatmass,

 

I have been wondering about the theology surrounding the sacraments and what it would imply if it were true. If I stepped into a Catholic church and received what is purported to be the blood, soul, and divinity of God incarnate, would that not stir some sort of supernatural effect in me? Should not some incredible sensation overcome my whole being, and I radiate some blinding aura that would utterly transform my life? Apparently the answer is no, and I see folks consume the host with the exact effect of what it appears to be, an ordinary wafer. Perhaps their personal belief may stimulate some psychological experience, but nothing extraordinary. So my question to you folks is, where is the power in these sacraments? Why do you believe they are something more than mere rituals?

 

Aptekarz

Sometimes people are granted some extraordinary experience, but most times we are not. And, for what it's worth, even if we are outsiders can't expect to see it. The most beautiful things happen in the privacy and stillness of the individual soul. But I believe with all my heart and soul that the sacraments are real, whether or not they can ever be proven. Often I find myself praying, after I have received the Eucharist, "Lord, I cannot sense your presence, but I know you are here so I will adore you anyway. Make me your own."

 

But we also have evidence of the reality of the sacraments. There have been numerous miracles documented of the Eucharist becoming physically the body of Christ (which it always is after the consecration) in a scientifically provable way, and many other miracles of various types proven in the Church.

 

But, like Abon12 said, "Faith." We have faith that these things are real, even if we cannot prove them. (You also have to have faith in things that you cannot prove, such as the fact that the physical world exists. We could be living in the Matrix, or Descartes could have been right when he started philosophizing about whether or not he had a hand (but he still used it to write...  :crazy:), or those of us who are answering you here could not even exist as who we say we are. But that is sort of an aside.)

 

And in the end, when the question is finally put before me of what if God did not exist, I hope I will always respond the same as Puddleglum (in what is probably my favorite quote from fiction of all time):

“One word. All you’ve been saying is quite right, I shouldn’t wonder. I’m a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won’t deny any of what you said. But there’s one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things – trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia." ~ Puddleglum speaking to the Witch-Queen of Underland in The Silver Chair, by C. S. Lewis

[MithLuin]

The experience of receiving the Eucharist is something extremely...private.  Yes, it's true that everyone else in the Church does, too - it's not necessarily a unique experience.  But it is something that happens in the interior of your heart, and so if you'd like to close your eyes and keep it hidden there, in the interior, that is...acceptable.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hello Phatmass,

 

I have been wondering about the theology surrounding the sacraments and what it would imply if it were true. If I stepped into a Catholic church and received what is purported to be the blood, soul, and divinity of God incarnate, would that not stir some sort of supernatural effect in me? Should not some incredible sensation overcome my whole being, and I radiate some blinding aura that would utterly transform my life? Apparently the answer is no, and I see folks consume the host with the exact effect of what it appears to be, an ordinary wafer. Perhaps their personal belief may stimulate some psychological experience, but nothing extraordinary. So my question to you folks is, where is the power in these sacraments? Why do you believe they are something more than mere rituals?

 

Aptekarz

 

The Sacraments are real, but if a person receives Communion with a valid Confession first, they're only receiving "to their condemnation". We can only receive Communion with no mortal sin. In addition, graces from Communion are increased depending on the person's disposition. It doesn't mean it's psychological. We can't create graces, they come from God. The explanation is I think that God doesn't force His grace on us, - we need to open up to it. If people do, they receive more from Communion because they're open to receiving more. Again, God doesn't force them to receive the grace. It's important to receive Communion with love. Thirdly, you can't really tell what people are experiencing after Communion, except sometimes, - but mostly people are just quiet and prayerful... there are times when people receive amazing consolation after Communion but outwardly they just look quiet. I have no doubt at all that Jesus is present in the Eucharist.

 

You might be interested in this: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

 

God bless!

Edited August 9, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Apotheoun]

The efficacy of a holy mystery is determined by the inward preparation of the one who receives it.

[LouisvilleFan]

Hello Phatmass,

 

I have been wondering about the theology surrounding the sacraments and what it would imply if it were true. If I stepped into a Catholic church and received what is purported to be the blood, soul, and divinity of God incarnate, would that not stir some sort of supernatural effect in me? Should not some incredible sensation overcome my whole being, and I radiate some blinding aura that would utterly transform my life? Apparently the answer is no, and I see folks consume the host with the exact effect of what it appears to be, an ordinary wafer. Perhaps their personal belief may stimulate some psychological experience, but nothing extraordinary. So my question to you folks is, where is the power in these sacraments? Why do you believe they are something more than mere rituals?

 

Aptekarz

 

Good question. The Eucharist can stir some sort of supernatural effect, but it's pretty rare. You're expecting Jesus to operate like a tyrant, commanding that his Presence by felt by all who receive Him, or even dare to look upon Him. That's not in the nature of Jesus, who was born, lived, and died in relative obscurity. In the Gospels, many people talked with Jesus face-to-face and turned away. Many could not receive miracles because their hearts were hardened. Jesus selected twelve disciples, and even one of those was a traitor. So if the supernatural effect you expect did not occur in His ministry 2,000 years ago, why do you expect it today?

Edited August 11, 2013 by LouisvilleFan