As Holy As You Have To Be...and No More?

[Amppax]

I think if you make a decision to give up trying to be perfect you become lukewarm. I don't think we are called to be lukewarm. Obviously, acknowledging the fact that you will never be perfect is fine, but giving up on that goal is putting your soul in danger.

Revelation 3:16.

[dUSt]

Woa, that's awesome. I'll have to remember that verse when writing about Moral Relativism.

[Socrates]

What do you think of the idea that someone gives up trying to be a saint, and just accepts the basic requirements of holiness. Go to Mass on Sunday, say your daily prayers, obey the Ten Commandments, etc.? Is it legitimate to not try to be extraordinary, because it is too much of a burden (for whatever reason), and just accept simple mediocrity. This seems kind of different from the "Little Way" because St. Therese would write about how she wishes she could die a thousand deaths for Jesus, etc...I'm talking about giving up that kind of yearning for spiritual perfection and just being good enough, because life is hard enough without dreaming of being eaten by beasts.

 

According to Matthew Kelley (and I believe he has a point here), minimalism ("What's the least I can do?") is one of the three big problems plaguing contemporary Catholics, along with hedonism ("If it feels good, do it") and individualism ("What's in it for me?").

 

I know I myself have many times been guilty of a minimalist attitude with regards to living my Faith.

 

I don't think Christ actually calls anyone to mediocrity, but calls us to give our all and do as much as we can in our state of life, however much that happens to be.

Christ had harsh words for the spiritually lukewarm.

 

 

i don't think that "just" going to Mass, following the Commandments, saying daily prayers, etc, can be called simple mediocrity. Doing "just" those things, and doing them well, can be extremely hard. 

 

 

How much and what exactly one does depends on one's condition and state of life.  If you're working, raising a family, etc., you won't have as much time to spend in formal prayer and contemplation as a monk in a monastery.  

 

Mediocrity and minimalism is about attitude ("what's the least I can get by with?"), rather than really giving one's all to try to live the Christian life.  

Quality over quantity.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Socrates

[MarysLittleFlower]

I agree with the points here :)

[Lil Red]

How much and what exactly one does depends on one's condition and state of life.  If you're working, raising a family, etc., you won't have as much time to spend in formal prayer and contemplation as a monk in a monastery.  

 

Mediocrity and minimalism is about attitude ("what's the least I can get by with?"), rather than really giving one's all to try to live the Christian life.  

Quality over quantity.

 

i don't see how our points conflict? :unsure: because i agree with everything you've said. :) 

[AnneLine]

Hmmm....  I wonder if this might not be an issue of 'perfection' vs 'perfectionism'.  Because they are different.

 

I see working towards 'perfection' as seeking to do the better thing at every option, and in doing that, keeping my eyes on God and trying to serve God as perfectly as I can.  That means that while I realize I never can be perfect, that I keep trying to go toward God.... and that God knows that and loves me for trying.....

 

versus

 

and being 'perfectionistic' (trying to do every little thing, and watching myself intently, focusing on all my failures and in doing so, spinning my wheels and sinking deeper, deeper, deeper the harder I spin....).

 

I think that difference in where I am looking is the key.  Is my focus on loving and serving God? 

 

Or is it on myself an how I will never be able to do that well? 

 

The second one ultimately leads to a temptation to just give up.

 

And at least for me, that always ends badly....

 

[Era Might]

Well all saints start somewhere.

 

I think that's more of what I'm getting at, you have to start somewhere. I think a lot of the responses have kind of been more fitting for people who are "in the club" so to speak, your typical dues-paying member of the parish. I'm thinking more of people who just have to get along where they are, and have some kind of commitment, however small. If you've ever read the book "Brideshead Revisited" there is a perfect example in the character of Sebastian Flyte. He comes from a big English Catholic family, but he is an outsider, "half pagan" his sister calls him. He's also a drunk and a homosexual. And he never can escape what he is, but by the end of the novel he is a sort of saint figure, in his way. I don't know that Sebastian could ever fit into the club, but maybe there's a place for him in the kingdom:

 

    "Well, finally one day they found Sebastian lying outside the main gate

unconscious; he had walked out  -- usually he took a  car -- and fallen down

and lain  there all night. At first  they thought he was merely drunk again;

then they  realized he was very ill, so they put him in the infirmary, where

he'd been ever since.

 

     "I stayed  a  fortnight with him till  he  was over the  worst  of  his

illness. He looked terrible, any  age, rather bald  with a straggling beard,

but he had his old sweet manner. They'd given him a room to himself; it  was

barely more than a monk's cell with a bed and a crucifix and white walls. At

first he couldn't talk much and  was not at all surprised to see me; then he

was surprised and wouldn't talk much, until just before I was going, when he

told me all that had been  happening to him. It was' mostly about Kurt,  his

German  friend. Well, you  met him, so  you  know  all about that. He sounds

gruesome, but  as long as Sebastian had him to look after, he  was happy. He

told  me  he'd practically given up drinking at one time  while  he and Kurt

lived together. Kurt was ill and had  a  wound that wouldn't heal. Sebastian

saw him through that. Then they went to Greece when  Kurt got well. You know

how Germans sometimes seem to discover a sense of decency when they get to a

classical country. It  seems  to  have worked with Kurt.  Sebastian says  he

became quite human  in Athens.  Then he got sent to prison; I couldn't quite

make out why; apparently it wasn't particularly  his fault-- some brawl with

an official. Once he was locked up the German authorities got at him. It was

the  time when  they were  rounding up all their nationals from all parts of

the world to make them into Nazis. Kurt didn't at all want  to leave Greece.

But the Greeks didn't want him, and he was marched straight from prison with

a lot of other toughs into a German boat and shipped home.

 

     "Sebastian went after him, and for a year could find no  trace. Then in

the end he ran him to earth dressed as a storm trooper in a provincial town.

At  first  he wouldn't have anything to do with  Sebastian; spouted  all the

official jargon about the rebirth of  his country, and his belonging  to his

country and finding  t self-realization in the life of the race. But  it was

only skin-deep with him. Six years  of  Sebastian had taught him more than a

year  of  Hitler; eventually he chucked  it, admitted he hated Germany,  and

wanted to get out. I don't  know how much it was simply the call of the easy

life, sponging on Sebastian, bathing in  the Mediterranean, sitting about in

caf&, having his shoes polished. Sebastian says it wasn't entirely that;

Kurt had  just begun to grow  up in Athens. It may be he's right. Anyway, he

decided  to try and get out. But it didn't work. He  always got into trouble

whatever  he  did,  Sebastian said.  They  caught  him  and  put  him  in  a

concentration camp. Sebastian couldn't get  near  him or hear a word of him;

he couldn't even find what  camp  he was in; he hung about for nearly a year

in Germany,  drinking again, until one day in his cups he took up with a man

who was just out of the camp where  Kurt  had been, and learned that  he had

hanged himself in his hut the first week.

 

     "So that was the end of Europe for  Sebastian. He went back to Morocco,

where he had been happy, and gradually drifted down the coast, from place to

place,  until one day when he had sobered up -- his  drinking goes in pretty

regular bouts  now--he conceived  the idea of escaping to the  savages.  And

there he was.

 

     "I didn't suggest his  coming home. I knew he wouldn't,  and he was too

weak still to  argue it out. He seemed quite happy by the time I left. He'll

never  be able to go into  the bush, of course, or join  the  order, but the

Father Superior is going to take charge of him.  They had the idea of making

him a sort of under-porter; there are  usually a  few  odd  hangers-on in  a

religious house, you know; people who can't quite fit in either to the world

or the monastic rule.  I suppose I'm something of the sort myself. But  as I

don't happen to drink, I'm more employable."

[Socrates]

i don't see how our points conflict? :unsure: because i agree with everything you've said. :)

 

Clarification, not conflict.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hmmm....  I wonder if this might not be an issue of 'perfection' vs 'perfectionism'.  Because they are different.

 

I see working towards 'perfection' as seeking to do the better thing at every option, and in doing that, keeping my eyes on God and trying to serve God as perfectly as I can.  That means that while I realize I never can be perfect, that I keep trying to go toward God.... and that God knows that and loves me for trying.....

 

versus

 

and being 'perfectionistic' (trying to do every little thing, and watching myself intently, focusing on all my failures and in doing so, spinning my wheels and sinking deeper, deeper, deeper the harder I spin....).

 

I think that difference in where I am looking is the key.  Is my focus on loving and serving God? 

 

Or is it on myself an how I will never be able to do that well? 

 

The second one ultimately leads to a temptation to just give up.

 

And at least for me, that always ends badly....

 

that's a good point! I think if a person admits their weakness, and tries to love God in their weakness, - God can work in their life despite that, and they would be humbled, and He can supply for all their misery. He made this very clear to some of the mystics. It's not weakness that's a problem... God loves us to be little :) of course on our own, we'll never be perfect! It's His own love helping us to love Him, that would transform us, but this is only if we rely on His, yes? :) Because if we rely on ourselves, we won't find the strength we need, - being weak.

Being 'perfectionist' involves trusting in oneself to become holy: which wouldn't work. We need to rely on Him and not be afraid of the "little way" of St Therese :)

I think that's more of what I'm getting at, you have to start somewhere. I think a lot of the responses have kind of been more fitting for people who are "in the club" so to speak, your typical dues-paying member of the parish. I'm thinking more of people who just have to get along where they are, and have some kind of commitment, however small. If you've ever read the book "Brideshead Revisited" there is a perfect example in the character of Sebastian Flyte. He comes from a big English Catholic family, but he is an outsider, "half pagan" his sister calls him. He's also a drunk and a homosexual. And he never can escape what he is, but by the end of the novel he is a sort of saint figure, in his way. I don't know that Sebastian could ever fit into the club, but maybe there's a place for him in the kingdom:

In this case, (though it's from a fictional book), it could be the case that God showed him mercy and used his situation to convert him in the end :) even though he struggled with so much weakness and alcoholism: God isn't limited by weakness. He can see people's hearts completely and how they'd respond, and what they'd need to respond. But I think for people who are "in the club", for us it's a choice with more knowledge. Also, if someone turns to God in the end of their life, that's maybe because someone prayed for them. We need the people who are strong in prayer and help Jesus bring souls to Himself :)

Edited August 7, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower