As Holy As You Have To Be...and No More?

[Era Might]

What do you think of the idea that someone gives up trying to be a saint, and just accepts the basic requirements of holiness. Go to Mass on Sunday, say your daily prayers, obey the Ten Commandments, etc.? Is it legitimate to not try to be extraordinary, because it is too much of a burden (for whatever reason), and just accept simple mediocrity. This seems kind of different from the "Little Way" because St. Therese would write about how she wishes she could die a thousand deaths for Jesus, etc...I'm talking about giving up that kind of yearning for spiritual perfection and just being good enough, because life is hard enough without dreaming of being eaten by beasts.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Era Might

[Lil Red]

i don't think that "just" going to Mass, following the Commandments, saying daily prayers, etc, can be called simple mediocrity. Doing "just" those things, and doing them well, can be extremely hard. 

[Era Might]

i don't think that "just" going to Mass, following the Commandments, saying daily prayers, etc, can be called simple mediocrity. Doing "just" those things, and doing them well, can be extremely hard. 

 

hmmmmm good point.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

What do you think of the idea that someone gives up trying to be a saint, and just accepts the basic requirements of holiness. Go to Mass on Sunday, say your daily prayers, obey the Ten Commandments, etc.? Is it legitimate to not try to be extraordinary, because it is too much of a burden (for whatever reason), and just accept simple mediocrity. This seems kind of different from the "Little Way" because St. Therese would write about how she wishes she could die a thousand deaths for Jesus, etc...I'm talking about giving up that kind of yearning for spiritual perfection and just being good enough, because life is hard enough without dreaming of being eaten by beasts.

 

I've always found the difference between the mystical and the rule-oriented approaches intriguing. All three of the main religions have this sort of dichotomy (since I know little about Judaism, I'll leave it out of my post). Sufis and Catholics both have an understanding of God as a lover/friend in their own ways. Some sufis place way more emphasis on a personal relationship with God than on following religious rules. There is also the belief that such rules (such as the mandatory pilgrimage to Mecca) become less important once someone reaches a certain spiritual level. 

 

If I'm not mistaken, Catholicism is in favor of spiritualism, but not to the point where essential rules are allowed to be broken. To a Catholic, if a person reached saint-on-earth status, she/he wouldn't be attempting/willing to act in such a way. Though even the most mystical version of Catholicism is way more rule oriented than Sufism, Peter Kreeft seems to really like Sufism. I would imagine that he'd be against it because if we cntl c + cntl v it onto Catholicism, it'd be a belief system the Vatican wouldn't be too happy about. 

Edited August 5, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[MithLuin]

Well, I think that mindset is 'off' -  you don't hit some level where you congratulate yourself and say 'great! I've achieved the minimum holiness level to enter heaven, so from here on out, it's all bonus points!'

 

(Mainly cause life isn't a video game)

 

Also, if you 'give up' on striving to be a saint (even just a simple ordinary one, not a hermit-in-the-desert or being-eaten-by-lions one), you'll find that you *don't* maintain your current level of holiness (however you're measuring it).  Instead, you backslide, your prayer life falls away to nearly nothing, and one day you realize that no one would even notice you're a Christian.  

 

It's just..an unhealthy mindset and approach for all sorts of reasons.  It misunderstands human nature *and* God's nature.

 

[Oremoose]

What do you think of the idea that someone gives up trying to be a saint, and just accepts the basic requirements of holiness. Go to Mass on Sunday, say your daily prayers, obey the Ten Commandments, etc.? Is it legitimate to not try to be extraordinary, because it is too much of a burden (for whatever reason), and just accept simple mediocrity. This seems kind of different from the "Little Way" because St. Therese would write about how she wishes she could die a thousand deaths for Jesus, etc...I'm talking about giving up that kind of yearning for spiritual perfection and just being good enough, because life is hard enough without dreaming of being eaten by beasts.

Well all saints start somewhere. As far as I know just by being "mediocre" dose not exist. Either you are growing in holiness by trying to listening to the Holy Spirit and following his will, Or you are not. There is no middle ground. I remember from my spiritual life class in my novitiate, that since we are inclined to sin (because of our fallen nature) we need to constantly try to strive for holiness to keep that inclination in check.

[PhuturePriest]

It would be missing the point entirely. Our goal in life is to become a Saint. This is our calling. If the person feels burnt out, he is doing something wrong, either by attempting to do too much in the name of holiness, or by being attached to a sin or something like that. This is why a good spiritual director (Or sometimes just a solid Priest to go to for advice in the confessional or outside) is essential. When in doubt, go to your father.

[arfink]

Well, we are kinda commanded to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, so I guess that sets the bar all the way to the top for a bare minimum. I don't think you can really go beyond that...

[morostheos]

Your thread title reminded me of the line in the Litany of Humility:

"That others may be holier than I, provided I may become as holy as I should."

 

To strive to be as holy as you should is not to be mediocre. To go about your spiritual life in a simple way does not mean it is less holy than someone who does great and extravagant things. One who faithfully lives each day in simplicity may easily be much more holy than someone who starts a great organization that helps thousands of people. Holiness comes from doing the will of God, but the will of God is not always the most difficult path. Mediocrity is definitely not a path to holiness as it is the same as being lukewarm, which Jesus specifically warns against. But it is also not a matter of simply muscling through and working your soul to the bone.  I leave you with this verse:

 

 â€œCome to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” - Matthew 11:28-30

[Luigi]

Well, we are kinda commanded to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, so I guess that sets the bar all the way to the top for a bare minimum. I don't think you can really go beyond that...

 

You're right. But I think a lot of people hear that "just be perfect" command and they throw up their hands. There are other Bible verses that have the same effect. 

 

One is the story of the rich young man. In Matthew, a rich young man asks Jesus what actions bring eternal life. First Jesus advises the man to obey the commandments. When the man responds that he already observes them, and asks what else he can do, Jesus adds: If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me. Luke adds that the rich young man went away very sad. 

 

Another one is from Luke 17: 7 â€œWill any one of you who has a servant[c] plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’? 8 Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly,[d] and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants;[e] we have only done what was our duty.’”

 

You hear something like that and you're liable to think, "Then ONLY people like Therese of Lisieux or Mother Theresa can make it into heaven. I don't stand a screaming chance."

 

I've heard a number of raised-in-religion-but-don't-practice-any-more types complain that "It doesn't matter how good you are, you're never good enough." Which gets to be a little discouraging after a while. 

 

Personally, I gave up on perfection a long time ago. I do still aim for improvement, but not perfection. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

What do you think of the idea that someone gives up trying to be a saint, and just accepts the basic requirements of holiness. Go to Mass on Sunday, say your daily prayers, obey the Ten Commandments, etc.? Is it legitimate to not try to be extraordinary, because it is too much of a burden (for whatever reason), and just accept simple mediocrity. This seems kind of different from the "Little Way" because St. Therese would write about how she wishes she could die a thousand deaths for Jesus, etc...I'm talking about giving up that kind of yearning for spiritual perfection and just being good enough, because life is hard enough without dreaming of being eaten by beasts.

 

Personally, I don't think this is the best approach... and humility is about relying on God's strength and seeing that we are weak, - and when we do this, we would grow in holiness. St Therese was very humble and yet she had the desire to be a Saint - she just saw herself as incapable of getting there, so she relied more on God. That's the best approach imo :) if we do this, and together with Mary.

 

I think if we don't seek to grow, we could easily go backwards... because the enemy wouldn't stop planning his attacks and we'd still have temptations, etc, but we wouldn't have the love to always reject them... we might not persevere.... even if we do persevere: we'd have to spend a longer time in Purgatory, whereas the Saints and other people who reached a higher level of holiness, didn't need Purgatory anymore, because they loved so much. Purgatory isn't fun... to put it lightly.. .it's extremely painful. Take a look at this: http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT  There were Saints who visited Purgatory and saw how much the souls there suffer. St Padre Pio was visited by a soul from Purgatory, who asked him to say a Mass or some Masses, I think - and St Padre Pio delayed a *tiny* bit and then the soul came back in extreme anguish and asked why he's waiting. It's been said that a bit of time for us is like weeks or months for them: they experience it differently. St Padre Pio always prayed for the poor souls and helped many in Purgatory. Anyways, my point is it's not something to take lightly :)

 

The "basic requirements for holiness" would keep you in a state of grace, but who knows what would happen in the future, what temptations you'll have to face - if we have a greater love for God, that would help us to persevere more easily. I'm not saying such a person can't persevere. It's just more difficult. We need to grow in trust and love. Also I heard about Saints who got to Heaven and wished so much they could go back to earth and suffer more for God, - because in Heaven, we'll see how it's like, and we would wish so much we could have served God more, and better... I think if we try to be holy here on earth, God could use that to help other souls and to save sinners - but if we only do the bare minimum, I think that's kind of only thinking about ourselves, and we'll regret this point of view in Heaven. I'm not saying I'm doing this well... but I think we should at least have the intention to grow and to love God greatly. If we don't really have a desire to, we could pray for this desire :)

 

You mentioned the reason - not wanting to be a saint because of all the difficulties.. but I think if we pray for more love, - we'd be able to bear it, because the more we love, the more we can suffer for God. I really think that in Heaven, - we would regret if we didn't want to really suffer here for Him. This has been what the Saints said too, - like those who went to Heaven already. I think we can offer the difficulties to help souls and to save sinners, - think of how happy that would make Jesus, and how it can give hope to someone who is NOT meeting their minimum requirements for salvation.

 

I think doing the minimum is like - only focusing on 'survival', but God made us for more than that, not for mediocrity :)

 

Sorry for this really long post lol!

 

God bless!

[MarysLittleFlower]

I also heard it said that - if we don't grow, we'd go backwards... we don't stay 'still' in the spiritual life.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Maybe that's because God isn't standing still.. He's trying to help us grow, He's always trying to inspire us with something, etc... your Guardian Angel isn't just staying still either, he's constantly trying to help you or guide you or praying for you. We either listen to them, and grow, or we dont' listen, and dont' grow. But this not listening has consequences, which make us go backwards... one is that the devil isn't standing still either, and he's also trying to tempt you or setting traps for you, unknown to yourself. If we aren't listening to God, that's like saying 'no' to God, it can then harden our heart to Him so we don't feel His guidance as easily, - sins tend to add to each other until it gets really hard, even tiny venial sins... (that's why we always need repentance). Then if we're not really following God, we're in danger of listening to the enemy, who would no doubt take this opportunity. The spiritual reality doesn't stand still, and - if we try to, - I think that's very dangerous... either, we'll 'fall asleep' and get lukewarm, because we're continuously blocking ourselves from God who is trying to help us to grow (for example, by inspiring us with holy thoughts after Communion, and we just reject them because of fear or them being too difficult). If a person struggles with a suggestion from God because it's difficult, that's understandable, but if they at least TRY to open up to Him, He can help them. But if they make a firm decision to "be mediocre" and *consistently* reject these thoughts, - think of what an insult that is to God, who is constantly trying to give graces... it's like rejecting someone's gifts, over and over again. God doesn't owe us any gifts. We're the ones who hurt Him and nailed Him to the Cross. Such a person would stop being responsive to the Holy Spirit, would have a difficult time telling apart virtue from sin, would not understand spiritual things as well as before, might feel confusion, a lack of faith, a lack of interest in spiritaul things, unrest at Mass, etc. That's the effects of unrepented sin or being willfully closed up to God. Since God is trying to help us grow, eventually we'd either accept that, or reject that: we would be forced to choose a side, or "fall asleep" and be lukewarm, - but we know what Revelations say about that. Another thing that could happen is the person could fall into a temptation to even hate God or be resentful, and start following the enemy in his heart. However, it could happen that one day, the person just can't resist God's invitation anymore to be holier, because it would become painful for him - and they would come back to God fully, - but it would be painful... and the remorse would be more painful than having had suffered and loved like a saint, or at least intended to.

 

I know this might be kind of scary to think about it like that, but I think it's impossible to stand still, the only way we stand still is if we become completely lukewarm, but then our salvation is unsure either. Even if such a person is saved, they'd have a lot of Purgatory to go through.

 

I think loving God gives us strength to suffer for Him. That's why we have the martyrs :) God gave them this grace. I think if we seek to love, our suffering would be almost sweet to us, (think of why the saints preferred it, not because they enjoyed suffering, but because of their love) - and we would get the courage to suffer in the right way. It wouldn't feel as scary as it does now. :) however, a lukewarm person who suffers a vague sense of guilt in their conscience (unless they push it down even further, which is very dangerous for their salvation), or a person who rejected God, - their suffering is empty of love, there's no courage or love to help them bear it, and it's not suffering for Christ, it's pain of having offended Him. It's the worst kind of pain.

 

Try to reflect on how Christ suffered and died for you. Reflect on His Passion. Maybe read something on His Passion, like the Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ by Blessed Catherine Emmerich. Look at a Crucifix for a while and pray. Pray the Sorrowful Mysteries. Do this at Adoration or before the Eucharist. Maybe this could help to resign ourselves more to difficulties in becoming holy... our difficulties would be tiny compared to His, and He would do most of the work, we would only cooperate through our will. Jesus loves to do everything for us in holiness, for us to be very very little, we only need to say 'yes', cooperate, through our will and actions, and agree to do whatever He tells us, then rely on Him for the grace to do it :) there would be our actions and acts of the will, but we fully rely on Him to actually give us the graces, help us to love, to repair our faults, to change.. we don't trust in ourselves. We just surrender, and He does the rest, leads us, and we cooperate. No matter what we have to go through in life, it's really little compared to what He went through on the Cross.

[MarysLittleFlower]

St John Vianney's sermons are really good :) they also make you want to be more holy ;) or if this question is for someone else, maybe this is something to share with them http://www.pamphlets.org.au/oregon/ctsorpr201.html

Edited August 6, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[dUSt]

I think if you make a decision to give up trying to be perfect you become lukewarm. I don't think we are called to be lukewarm. Obviously, acknowledging the fact that you will never be perfect is fine, but giving up on that goal is putting your soul in danger.