Apteka Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Let me begin by saying that I am not a Catholic even though I respect many of its pious traditions and doctrines. And despite my native Poland's strong Catholicity, I make a distinction between the grassroots community of believers that had a positive impact on my nation, and the Vatican institution which often undermined it. One instance was the failed November Uprising where Poles fought to regain their freedom and win back their rightful sovereignty. Pope Gregory XVI wrote an encyclical to all the Bishops of Poland, chastising the Poles for their rebellion against "legitimate authority" and instead encouraged them to be obedient to their Russian masters. As a Pole and lover of my Fatherland, I can only shake my head in disgust! It is one of many examples of the flaw of blindly obeying authority http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/G16CUMPR.HTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Popes are only human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Popes are only human. His premise was that the slave must always obey his master, and that this was the constant teaching of sacred tradition. I don't agree with this, there is no such thing as unconditional obedience to authority, but such is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (unless of course the Vatican's interests are compromised, then anything goes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 His premise was that the slave must always obey his master, and that this was the constant teaching of sacred tradition. I don't agree with this, there is no such thing as unconditional obedience to authority, but such is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (unless of course the Vatican's interests are compromised, then anything goes). Popes have been wrong before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Popes have been wrong before. I see you are an Eastern Catholic. What are the limits of obedience in your sphere of thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Good thread...I like finding this stuff out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) This is not a matter of doctrine, therefore the Pope can be fallible. Popes have done bad stuff before. Pope John Paul II (A Pole, as you very well know, I'm sure) went to confession every single day, and he's soon to be a Saint! Popes make mistakes, and never do you see anyone claiming that they don't. They simply do not teach error when it comes to doctrinal matters. Edited July 31, 2013 by FuturePriest387 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Sometimes popes think they're being nearly infallible when they aren't. When people's experience changes, they adapt their thinking. Obedience is a good thing in itself, that's the truth that doesn't change. But the leaders in the Church eventually figured out that obedience isn't always good in all circumstances. Sometimes leaders think that one way of living out a truth or applying a truth is also true, until they figure out that it isn't. Like, look at America. The Church thought separation of Church and state and freedom of religion was a terrible thing...because until America the Church had always flourished with a Catholic head of state. The truth that the Catholic Church is the true church and all religions are not equally good hasn't changed, but the way we apply those truths (allowing separation of church and state, allowing freedom of religious belief and/or expression) has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 This is not a matter of doctrine, therefore the Pope can be fallible. Popes have done bad stuff before. Pope John Paul II (A Pole, as you very well know, I'm sure) went to confession every single day, and he's soon to be a Saint! Popes make mistakes, and never do you see anyone claiming that they don't. They simply do not teach error when it comes to doctrinal matters. I'm glad most of you agree that the Pope was in error here, but where did he err? In the Encyclical, Pope Gregory states that it is the constant teaching of the Church to be obedient to legitimate authority. Did the Pope err in stating revolt is never justified, and that the people must always be obedient to authority? Or did he err in suggesting that the Russians were the legitimate authority over the Poles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Sometimes popes think they're being nearly infallible when they aren't. When people's experience changes, they adapt their thinking. Obedience is a good thing in itself, that's the truth that doesn't change. But the leaders in the Church eventually figured out that obedience isn't always good in all circumstances. Sometimes leaders think that one way of living out a truth or applying a truth is also true, until they figure out that it isn't. Like, look at America. The Church thought separation of Church and state and freedom of religion was a terrible thing...because until America the Church had always flourished with a Catholic head of state. The truth that the Catholic Church is the true church and all religions are not equally good hasn't changed, but the way we apply those truths (allowing separation of church and state, allowing freedom of religious belief and/or expression) has changed. No. I say we force everyone to be Catholic by law. If someone misses Mass, a cop will arrive at their doorstep asking why they weren't there. This will fix everything, I'm sure of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I'm glad most of you agree that the Pope was in error here, but where did he err? In the Encyclical, Pope Gregory states that it is the constant teaching of the Church to be obedient to legitimate authority. Did the Pope err in stating revolt is never justified, and that the people must always be obedient to authority? Or did he err in suggesting that the Russians were the legitimate authority over the Poles? He did not error when he said that was a constant teaching of the Church. It IS true that we must always obey legitimate authority. He simply erred when he thought the Russian government was a legitimate authority when it clearly wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 He did not error when he said that was a constant teaching of the Church. It IS true that we must always obey legitimate authority. He simply erred when he thought the Russian government was a legitimate authority when it clearly wasn't. Ok, my two follow up questions would be (1) would the Poles have had the right to disobey the Pope in this matter and (2) what are your thoughts on the American Revolution (not to switch the topic in a totally different direction, a simple "good" or "bad" would suffice! More curious about your opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Ok, my two follow up questions would be (1) would the Poles have had the right to disobey the Pope in this matter and (2) what are your thoughts on the American Revolution (not to switch the topic in a totally different direction, a simple "good" or "bad" would suffice! More curious about your opinion) I don't know the full situation. Did their rebellion fit the Just War Doctrine? If so, then they would have been allowed to disobey what the Pope said since what he said wasn't binding. It's only binding if it's a matter of doctrine. The same goes for the American Revolution. Did it fit the Just War Doctrine? If so, then the rebellion was okay. As far as I'm aware, people were starving to death due to the taxation. I'd say that fits the description of the Just War Doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Sometimes popes think they're being nearly infallible when they aren't. When people's experience changes, they adapt their thinking. Obedience is a good thing in itself, that's the truth that doesn't change. But the leaders in the Church eventually figured out that obedience isn't always good in all circumstances. Sometimes leaders think that one way of living out a truth or applying a truth is also true, until they figure out that it isn't. Like, look at America. The Church thought separation of Church and state and freedom of religion was a terrible thing...because until America the Church had always flourished with a Catholic head of state. The truth that the Catholic Church is the true church and all religions are not equally good hasn't changed, but the way we apply those truths (allowing separation of church and state, allowing freedom of religious belief and/or expression) has changed. Is there a modern exposition on the Catholic notion of obedience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 No. I say we force everyone to be Catholic by law. If someone misses Mass, a cop will arrive at their doorstep asking why they weren't there. This will fix everything, I'm sure of it. that would be horrible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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