MithLuin Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 A facebook friend shared this article, and I found it fascinating. (I mean, sad in a way, but grief is often sad) I've always wondered how atheists, pagans, and in general those who lack belief in the hereafter deal with the death of a loved one. But of course, at the funeral is not exactly the time to voice that curiosity. And yes, I do know people who are sincere in their belief that this life is all there is, and when it's over... it's over. I know a grandmother who felt she had no choice but to tell her grandson when he asked, 'no, your mother is not in heaven and we will never see her again.' Obviously she loved her daughter, and her grandsons (whom she raised), but she wasn't willing to sugarcoat the experience with what she viewed as a lie/falsehood. It seems so harsh, but at the same time, it's not a time to play pretend or offer false hope. So what do you do, if you don't believe in God or heaven or hell? Obviously, it's different than how Christians view death, but at the same time, the experience of loss is a universal human, well, experience. So I found it very interesting to hear the process described from the point of view of a secular Jewish person. I'm not trying to start a debate (hence why I didn't put this on the debate table), but I thought it would be interesting to share. This perspective isn't one I share myself, but I think it helps me to understand others better...to know where they're coming from. http://freethinkingjew.com/2013/07/16/guest-post-grieving-without-belief-in-god-or-an-afterlife/ At the moment, there are only 3 comments on this blog post, and the woman is posting about the death of her infant son. PLEASE, please, please, if you decide you want to leave a comment, make sure that it is charitable and helpful. No one will take you seriously if it's clear you didn't even read the article and you'll do more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apteka Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 "Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else." -Marcus Aurelius, Meditations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Thought this would be about giving atheists grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 Ah...I guess I could have called it 'grieving from an atheist perspective' or something more illuminating like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 "The idea that we didn’t exist for billions of years before we were born, and that wasn’t painful or bad, and death will be the same. The idea that our genes and/or ideas will live on after we die. The idea that each of us was astronomically lucky to have been born at all. The idea that death is a deadline, something that helps us focus our lives and treasure the experiences we have…The idea that loss, including death, is necessary for life and change to be possible. The idea that things don’t have to be permanent to be meaningful. The idea that your life, your slice of the timeline, will always have existed even though you die. The idea that death is a natural, physical process that connects us intimately with nature and the universe. " That about sums it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Right. It's just...it's a different process, a different way of thinking. So for me, this is definitely 'from the outside'. And it's important for me to understand that, so I can try to say something beyond 'I'm sorry for your loss' to a friend who loses someone. Not that anything anyone says at a funeral makes it better, but still, I'd like to understand a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I know a grandmother who felt she had no choice but to tell her grandson when he asked, 'no, your mother is not in heaven and we will never see her again.' Obviously she loved her daughter, and her grandsons (whom she raised), but she wasn't willing to sugarcoat the experience with what she viewed as a lie/falsehood. It seems so harsh, but at the same time, it's not a time to play pretend or offer false hope. So what do you do, if you don't believe in God or heaven or hell? Well I for one think what she said was cruel. Why couldn't she simply say she doesn't know? That there are theories and religions but she doesn't know for sure. She can't possibly know for sure. If the woman wanted to be honest, then she should have been honest - that she doesn't know the answer. There are plenty of ways to answer (and comfort) a confused child. Sometimes with a non-answer. Or she could have encouraged him to find his OWN answers in a faith (or no faith) of his choosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Well I for one think what she said was cruel. Why couldn't she simply say she doesn't know? That there are theories and religions but she doesn't know for sure. She can't possibly know for sure. If the woman wanted to be honest, then she should have been honest - that she doesn't know the answer. There are plenty of ways to answer (and comfort) a confused child. Sometimes with a non-answer. Or she could have encouraged him to find his OWN answers in a faith (or no faith) of his choosing. Agreed. It does seem a bit harsh. I recall an interview with James Randi, a famous skeptic/atheist, where he talks about a moment he had with his dying grandfather: He said, "Now tell me the truth. Do you think I'm going to see Janie again?" That was his wife. She had died quite a number of years before that. And I lied to him. I looked at him straight in the eyes and said, "Gramps, knowing you, I think if anyone can do it, you will be with Janie when you pass and it will be a joyous time for you and it will be a joyous time for me knowing that you're with Janie. Edited July 31, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Well, she wasn't agnostic. She was an atheist. And she was pretty darn sure that when her daughter died suddenly of meningitis, it was all over. There was no...after life. She didn't have any doubts about that. And yes, it seemed harsh, but it would have also seemed harsh to lie to a 10 year old boy. To be clear, she allowed him to attend a Christian school for a year or so. It wasn't that she was opposed to him hearing those viewpoints. She just couldn't pretend to share them. So, when he asked her (not in the immediate aftermath of his mother's death, but sometime after), she gave him her honest answer. "No." She died of cancer this spring. I have not heard from their family recently, but I never doubted that she truly loved her grandsons. It's just a difficult situation to handle death, no matter what you believe about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Well, she wasn't agnostic. She was an atheist. And she was pretty darn sure that when her daughter died suddenly of meningitis, it was all over. There was no...after life. She didn't have any doubts about that. And yes, it seemed harsh, but it would have also seemed harsh to lie to a 10 year old boy. To be clear, she allowed him to attend a Christian school for a year or so. It wasn't that she was opposed to him hearing those viewpoints. She just couldn't pretend to share them. So, when he asked her (not in the immediate aftermath of his mother's death, but sometime after), she gave him her honest answer. "No." She died of cancer this spring. I have not heard from their family recently, but I never doubted that she truly loved her grandsons. It's just a difficult situation to handle death, no matter what you believe about it. You're right, it is a very complicated situation to be in. My example was different because the grandfather already believed in an afterlife. It makes sense that she wouldn't want to lie to the children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 And yes, it seemed harsh, but it would have also seemed harsh to lie to a 10 year old boy. To be clear, she allowed him to attend a Christian school for a year or so. It wasn't that she was opposed to him hearing those viewpoints. She just couldn't pretend to share them. So, when he asked her (not in the immediate aftermath of his mother's death, but sometime after), she gave him her honest answer. "No." Maybe it would've been better for her to say "No, [b]I[/b] don't believe so, [b]however[/b] it's what you believe in your heart that's important." Not a flat-out "No, there's no afterlife." Because unless she's 100% positive this is the case (and there's no way she can be 100% positive), then she wasn't honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 You're right, it is a very complicated situation to be in. My example was different because the grandfather already believed in an afterlife. It makes sense that she wouldn't want to lie to the children. Yeah but it's not like anyone asked her to tell the kid that everyone goes to a happy cloud place in the sky with pretty angels playing the harps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploomf Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Maybe it would've been better for her to say "No, I don't believe so, however it's what you believe in your heart that's important." Not a flat-out "No, there's no afterlife." Because unless she's 100% positive this is the case (and there's no way she can be 100% positive), then she wasn't honest. Just out of curiosity, would you consider that a Catholic wasn't being honest if they had answered with a flat out yes, there is an afterlife? Because after all, there's no way you can be 100% positive. Do you think Catholic (or Christian of any stripe) parents should tell their children, "we believe there is an afterlife but some don't and it's what you believe in your heart that's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 (edited) Yeah but it's not like anyone asked her to tell the kid that everyone goes to a happy cloud place in the sky with pretty angels playing the harps. True. I've heard someone argue that belief in an afterlife would have actually made his grieving process worse. Understanding that he'd never see his mother again helped him move on and accept the fact that she had died. It's possible that she saw it the same way. We have to remember that she actually believed that there's no afterlife and, perhaps, didn't want to lie to the children. She may have felt that telling them otherwise would have been worse for them. I would have personally said something along the lines of what you wrote, but that's just me. Edited July 31, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Sad very sad, in the attempt not to lie to her grandchild, she told the greatest of lies. It must have hurt a lot, it could have felt like loosing one's mom all over again. I know probably not the type of response that was wanted, but dang... I am sorry, telling the kid that at that time was cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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