Pope Francis' Comments On Gay Priests

[KnightofChrist]

Actually, the more research that is being done in the area is increasingly in support of the idea that homosexuals ARE homosexual. There are some pretty clear neurobiological differences in homosexuals vs heterosexuals that results in a homosexual phenotype.
 
 
 
I was never turning it into a defining characteristic. I was simply stating that despite what hardships you describe as the homosexual condition, they should not be judged in their capacity to overcome adversity.

Many disorders have similar effects on the mind and body. I fail to see how exactly this proves your premise that someone's being is defined by a disorder.

[CrossCuT]

When did I say someones being is defined by a disorder?

[KnightofChrist]

When you said someone who suffers from ssa IS gay.

[Apotheoun]

Actually, the more research that is being done in the area is increasingly in support of the idea that homosexuals ARE homosexual. There are some pretty clear neurobiological differences in homosexuals vs heterosexuals that results in a homosexual phenotype.

 

 

 

I was never turning it into a defining characteristic. I was simply stating that despite what hardships you describe as the homosexual condition, they should not be judged in their capacity to overcome adversity.

The homosexual condition, like any disorder, is an effect of the fall into death and sin of Adam and Eve. It is to be overcome by grace, and it should never be embraced as something that essentially defines a person. It is a negation, and not an essential quality.

 

By the way, I did not say that you personally were turning the homosexual condition into a defining characteristic of a person who happens to be afflicted with it; instead, I was merely pointing out that our society is doing that under the pressures that are being exerted upon it by certain homosexual activists. I am reminded of that Pope Benedict XVI said, while he was still the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

 

"It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

 

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase."

 

That people struggle with this condition is a part of life in our fallen world, and the struggle to live life as God has intended it is always a good in itself, but that struggle is undermined if a person makes the homosexual condition an essential quality of the existence of one suffering from it. It is that promotion of false compassion that must be avoided at all costs, that is, if we are truly to help others to live as they should as an image of God.

[Apotheoun]

Many disorders have similar effects on the mind and body. I fail to see how exactly this proves your premise that someone's being is defined by a disorder.

I agree. God created man as male and female in order to transmit life and share in an intimate communion of love that reflects the love of the Trinity. The distortions of human nature that have resulted from the fall into death and sin - including the homosexual condition - is to be overcome by the grace of God made available through the incarnation of the eternal Logos. The damage that Adam caused can only be cured by turning to Christ, and living as He lived.

[Apotheoun]

When you said someone who suffers from ssa IS gay.

Yes, St. Gregory of Nyssa pointed out the problem of using "is" in a way that identifies an action with the essence of a being. His solution, which he used to defeat the Eunomian heretics, was to affirm in every proposition using the word "is" in relation to God or man an invisible "is" that bears the weight of essentiality. Action flows from essence - according to St. Gregory - but it is not essential; instead, it is energetic. Actions reveal something about a person (e.g., whether the person is good or bad in relation to a specific activity), but the essence remains beyond comprehension.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

To put it another way: a man has passions, but he is not essentially any one of the passions that he experiences.

[CrossCuT]

 

The homosexual condition, like any disorder, is an effect of the fall into death and sin of Adam and Eve. It is to be overcome by grace, and it should never be embraced as something that essentially defines a person. It is a negation, and not an essential quality.

 

By the way, I did not say that you personally were turning the homosexual condition into a defining characteristic of a person who happens to be afflicted with it; instead, I was merely pointing out that our society is doing that under the pressures that are being exerted upon it by certain homosexual activists. I am reminded of that Pope Benedict XVI said, while he was still the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

 

"It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

 

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase."

 

That people struggle with this condition is a part of life in our fallen world, and the struggle to live life as God has intended it is always a good in itself, but that struggle is undermined if a person makes the homosexual condition an essential quality of the existence of one suffering from it. It is that promotion of false compassion that must be avoided at all costs, that is, if we are truly to help others to live as they should as an image of God.

 

If you believe this is a mental disorder and that the only help is the grace of God then how do you explain that modern studies are discovering a homosexual phenotype?

Will the grace of God PHYSICALLY change them so that they become heterosexual again? And what if they cant physically change? 

 

And I am embracing the people because in the context of this thread it has been expressed that people dont believe homosexual  men should be able to become priests. I am embracing those men and saying that I DONT identify them with their "condition". I truly believe they can be an amazing, faithful priest regardless.

[CrossCuT]

To put it another way: a man has passions, but he is not essentially any one of the passions that he experiences.

 

Who is saying that a man/woman is essentially anyone of their passions?

Like...Are you even reading what Im saying? This context is about homosexuality so when I talk about it in this thread I am not implying that its the only characteristic that is important in them...Im talking about it  because it is what we are talking about.

[Apotheoun]

If you believe this is a mental disorder and that the only help is the grace of God then how do you explain that modern studies are discovering a homosexual phenotype?

Will the grace of God PHYSICALLY change them so that they become heterosexual again? And what if they cant physically change? 

 

And I am embracing the people because in the context of this thread it has been expressed that people dont believe homosexual  men should be able to become priests. I am embracing those men and saying that I DONT identify them with their "condition". I truly believe they can be an amazing, faithful priest regardless.

I believe it is a psychical disorder, and I am using the word psyche in its original biblical sense (i.e., referring to the soul), caused by the fall into death and sin. God did not create the homosexual condition, just as he did not create the conditions of pedophilia or kleptomania, etc. Studies that look at man as he is in this present state of existence do not reveal what God intended for man; instead, they reveal what man has done to himself by his rebellion against God. 

[CrossCuT]

I guess that I dont want to be as unforgiving as that.

[Apotheoun]

Who is saying that a man/woman is essentially anyone of their passions?

Like...Are you even reading what Im saying? This context is about homosexuality so when I talk about it in this thread I am not implying that its the only characteristic that is important in them...Im talking about it  because it is what we are talking about.

Who is saying this? Our political leaders, gay activists, some misguided Catholics and Evangelical Christians, and a assortment of other people.

 

I am reading what you are saying, and I don't disagree with all of your comments. I only disagree with the portions that reveal an affinity to the modern relativism that tries to justify homosexual activity or which tries to tell people afflicted with this sad disorder that they are to identify their very existence with it. God did not create the homosexual condition; instead, man did that by his rebellion against God.

[Apotheoun]

I guess that I dont want to be as unforgiving as that.

Who is being unforgiving? God is very forgiving and Christians are to emulate God in that divine activity, but forgiveness involves both an act on the part of the one doing the forgiving and the one seeking forgiveness. Metanoia, on the part of the man who needs forgiveness, is a necessary precondition to a forgiveness that can transform him. If a person has no contrition for his sins, God still gives him forgiveness, but the subjective effect of that act is stymied by the lack of repentance on the part of the one who committed the offense in the first place.

 

Let's be clear about this, God forgives even those who da[i][/i]mn themselves to hell, but that does not mean that they are not still in hell. Those who end up in hell have created a world of their own making. In fact, God loves the damned so much that He will not force them to be saved.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Apotheoun

[CrossCuT]

or which tries to tell people afflicted with this sad disorder that they are to identify their very existence with it. 

I am not telling homosexuals to identify their existence with it. 

How many times do you want me to repeat that?

 

ltr

 

Who is being unforgiving? God is very forgiving and Christians are to emulate God in that divine activity, but forgiveness involves both an act of the one doing the forgiving and the one seeking forgiveness. Metanoia is a necessary precondition to a forgiveness that can transform a man.

 

Let's be clear about this, God forgives even those who beaver dam themselves to hell, but that does not mean that they are not still in hell. Those who end up in hell have created a world of their own making. In fact, God loves the damned so much that He will not force them to be saved.

 

Youre essentially saying saying that you believe its a physical disorder (which cannot be changed by prayer, rather overcome if you so wish) and that its basically their own fault for being a part of the sinful human race.

And because of this physical condition (that they cant change) they cant be priests, or be in the military, or be teachers in Catholic school (or whatever other examples of things ive read on this site regarding the issue).

Rather, youd just tell them "Hey man, its your own fault for sinning"

 

I dont subscribe to that mentality.

 

I believe that even if they are born with a condition that people damn, they can still live a faithful life because they are NOT identified as a disordered person. They are a person.

Edited July 30, 2013 by CrossCuT

[Apotheoun]

I am not telling homosexuals to identify their existence with it. 

How many times do you want me to repeat that?

 

ltr

 

 

Youre essentially saying saying that you believe its a physical disorder (which cannot be changed by prayer, rather overcome if you so wish) and that its basically their own fault for being a part of the sinful human race.

And because of this physical condition (that they cant change) they cant be priests, or be in the military, or be teachers in Catholic school (or whatever other examples of things ive read on this site regarding the issue).

Rather, youd just tell them "Hey man, its your own fault for sinning"

 

I dont subscribe to that mentality.

No, I have no where called the homosexual condition a physical disorder; instead, I called it a psychical (i.e., a disorder of the soul and will). Now because the homosexual condition is a defect in the psyche (i.e., the soul and will) it can be healed by prayer and ascetic discipline. Nevertheless, what won't help in its healing is for a person who suffers from the condition to see it as somehow normative for him. Instead, he needs to recognize it for what it is, i.e., a defect, a disorder, that must be overcome by reliance upon God and by prayer and determined activity, along with avoiding the near occasions of sin (i.e., situations in which he may be tempted to act upon his disordered passions).

 

As far as the priesthood is concerned, I support what the Church has said in its official documents, that is, that men with deep-seated homosexual tendencies should not be ordained. If a man with that problem is already ordained it follows that he will need to struggle against the disordered passions that afflict him, and part of that struggle should be rejecting the modern movement that tells people to embrace the condition as somehow normal for those who experience it. I don't see what is so problematic about my support for the Church's teaching on the issue.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Apotheoun