Pope Francis' Comments On Gay Priests

[CrossCuT]

Many years ago, a Priest in my diocese had his faculties taken away because he was seen sleeping with his secretary, and wouldn't stop even after he was caught. My spiritual director is gay and is a great, faithful, celibate Priest. Sexual orientation doesn't make you a good or bad Priest. Holiness or lack thereof does.

 

Props!

 

Since the church regards this as a mental disorder (I dont really agree but we can just say it is for right now) then where do they draw the line?

Is there an official list of disordered that priest arent allowed to have?

Can a priest have ADD? Anxiety? Phobias? Those are all disorders as well.

If they think homosexuality is a disorder that will somehow make him unfit to do his job then what if he lost a leg? Or an arm?

Or he is blind?

I feel like they should really define these parameters so a priest knows he needs to be healthy.

Maybe they should to fitness entrance exams. 

[PhuturePriest]

Props!

 

Since the church regards this as a mental disorder (I dont really agree but we can just say it is for right now) then where do they draw the line?

Is there an official list of disordered that priest arent allowed to have?

Can a priest have ADD? Anxiety? Phobias? Those are all disorders as well.

If they think homosexuality is a disorder that will somehow make him unfit to do his job then what if he lost a leg? Or an arm?

Or he is blind?

I feel like they should really define these parameters so a priest knows he needs to be healthy.

Maybe they should to fitness entrance exams. 

 

You lost me a little bit, there. Same-sex attraction IS a disorder: It is not the way things are ordered according to nature. It's not normal, and you aren't supposed to be attracted to those of the same sex. This doesn't make it their fault, as they didn't choose to have it. However, that doesn't make it any less a disorder. I have a stammer. I definitely didn't choose to have it, but that doesn't make it any less a disorder.

 

Fitness entrance exams don't really make sense. They prefer you to be fit, but being Rambo doesn't really have anything to do with the Priesthood. If, however, you had a major weight problem and it was because you were addicted to food (Again, another disorder), then they would probably turn you away because of it. It's not the physical health that bothers them, it's the mental health.

[CatherineM]

There is a seminarian here that has bipolar, and we just ordained a man who is profoundly deaf. When I had classes with him, and we broke into discussion groups, he had this digital mic we had to talk into.

25 years ago I represented a priest who lost his arm in a car accident. He worked for months learning how to elevate the host and cup with his artificial hand, but it wasn't good enough. I worked out a deal with the archbishop for him to become the permanent chaplain at the catholic nursing home.

[CrossCuT]

You lost me a little bit, there. Same-sex attraction IS a disorder: It is not the way things are ordered according to nature. It's not normal, and you aren't supposed to be attracted to those of the same sex. This doesn't make it their fault, as they didn't choose to have it. However, that doesn't make it any less a disorder. I have a stammer. I definitely didn't choose to have it, but that doesn't make it any less a disorder.

 

Fitness entrance exams don't really make sense. They prefer you to be fit, but being Rambo doesn't really have anything to do with the Priesthood. If, however, you had a major weight problem and it was because you were addicted to food (Again, another disorder), then they would probably turn you away because of it. It's not the physical health that bothers them, it's the mental health.

 Exactly, it doesnt make sense.

How would you feel if someone told you you couldnt become a priest because you had a stammer? 

 

There is a seminarian here that has bipolar, and we just ordained a man who is profoundly deaf. When I had classes with him, and we broke into discussion groups, he had this digital mic we had to talk into.

25 years ago I represented a priest who lost his arm in a car accident. He worked for months learning how to elevate the host and cup with his artificial hand, but it wasn't good enough. I worked out a deal with the archbishop for him to become the permanent chaplain at the catholic nursing home.

Thats awesome!

Even with disorders and disabilities, they can still be faithful priest! Because after all, BEING homosexual isnt a sin but acting on it is. And if a priest is celibate, then there is no problem. :)

[Apotheoun]

Props!

 

Since the church regards this as a mental disorder (I dont really agree but we can just say it is for right now) then where do they draw the line?

Is there an official list of disordered that priest arent allowed to have?

Can a priest have ADD? Anxiety? Phobias? Those are all disorders as well.

If they think homosexuality is a disorder that will somehow make him unfit to do his job then what if he lost a leg? Or an arm?

Or he is blind?

I feel like they should really define these parameters so a priest knows he needs to be healthy.

Maybe they should to fitness entrance exams. 

The homosexual condition - according to the Church's Tradition - makes a man unfit for ordination because it is held to be a "a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil." While being blind, having a stammer, or even losing a limb, does not orient a man toward something that is morally contrary to human nature as God intends it. In addition, Roman Catholic canon law lists certain types of mental illness, and certain actions, that may disqualify a man from ordination to the priesthood (see canon 1041 of the CIC).

[Apotheoun]

I loved that movie. The best part was the kid giving a fire and brimstone sermon to the Mercedes driving suburbanites.

I thought that the movie presented the Catholic Church as a mainline Protestant (somewhat Episcopalian) organization. It was pushing a major liberal agenda.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Apotheoun

[CrossCuT]

The homosexual condition - according to the Church's Tradition - makes a man unfit for ordination because it is held to be a "a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil." While being blind, having a stammer, or even losing a limb, does not orient a man toward something that is morally contrary to human nature as God intends it. In addition, Roman Catholic canon law lists certain types of mental illness, and certain actions, that may disqualify a man from ordination to the priesthood (see canon 1041 of the CIC).

 

We are all being more or less temped to moral evil all the time everyday by the devil.

BEING gay is not wrong. The church is clear on that. ACTING on it is, however, where it gets hairy.

 

So to say that gay men are not even GIVEN the chance to overcome their difficulties is terrible. Go tell anyone who has ever overcome a disability in life that they shouldnt have even been given the opportunity. We have no right to judge how someone will or will not handle the cross they were given in life. Even if they have a "more or less strong tendency toward intrinsic moral evil" that doesnt mean they WILL fall or are unable to fight against it.

They may have a rougher time in life but they should ALWAYS be given the opportunity to be the best they can be and not be held back because we have prejudged them.

[PhuturePriest]

 Exactly, it doesnt make sense.

How would you feel if someone told you you couldnt become a priest because you had a stammer? 

 

Thats amesome!

Even with disorders and disabilities, they can still be faithful priest! Because after all, BEING homosexual isnt a sin but acting on it is. And if a priest is celibate, then there is no problem. :)

 

I never said we should turn men away because they were gay. I disagreed with your belief that same-sex attraction isn't a disorder.

[Apotheoun]

We are all being more or less temped to moral evil all the time everyday by the devil.

BEING gay is not wrong. The church is clear on that. ACTING on it is, however, where it gets hairy.

 

So to say that gay men are not even GIVEN the chance to overcome their difficulties is terrible. Go tell anyone who has ever overcome a disability in life that they shouldnt have even been given the opportunity. We have no right to judge how someone will or will not handle the cross they were given in life. Even if they have a "more or less strong tendency toward intrinsic moral evil" that doesnt mean they WILL fall or are unable to fight against it.

They may have a rougher time in life but they should ALWAYS be given the opportunity to be the best they can be and not be held back because we have prejudged them.

First off, no one IS gay. The homosexual condition is a privation of the properly ordered passions of a man for a woman and a woman for a man. For that is why God made man male and female. Marital love is a reflection of God's life-giving love, and a union of two men or two women cannot reflect the glory of God in the same way. In fact, such a pseudo-union is an affront to God and what He intends for humanity in the act of creation at the beginning of time. So is there something wrong with the homosexual condition? Yes, of course there is, and that is why the Church describes that condition as a tendency toward moral evil, and as contrary to nature.

 

More importantly, and taking into account what I said above, no one should turn a disordered condition into a defining characteristic of the human person. I would not do that with any disorder (sexual or otherwise). Finally, Catholics - in the face of the militant secularism that pervades our culture and that embraces moral relativism - need to reaffirm the truth about man, which is found only in Christ, for He alone reveals the proper nature man as he was created, male and female, and the fact that the marital union is a reflection of the union of Christ and the Church. The homosexual condition, as a privation of a good, cannot bring anyone to fulfillment, which is why it must be overcome by the grace of God and ascetic discipline.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

So to say that gay men are not even GIVEN the chance to overcome their difficulties is terrible. 

If one is going to overcome a disordered condition it is important (actually, vital) that he not make that condition into a personally defining characteristic. The disordered passions (and I am not merely referring to the homosexual condition at this point - although because it is contrary to nature it is particularly problematic) must be overcome by grace and ascetic discipline, and I do not see how turning the disorder into a self-defining characteristic can ever help a person to overcome the disordered condition that afflicts him. We are not slaves to our passions, whether properly ordered or disordered.

[CatherineM]

I thought that the movie presented the Catholic Church as a mainline Protestant (somewhat Episcopalian) organization. It was pushing a major liberal agenda.

Well, it was the 70's.

[Apotheoun]

Well, it was the 70's.

Sadly, the some Catholic parishes as they exist today look like they are still in the 1970s.

[CrossCuT]

First off, no one IS gay. 

Actually, the more research that is being done in the area is increasingly in support of the idea that homosexuals ARE homosexual. There are some pretty clear neurobiological differences in homosexuals vs heterosexuals that results in a homosexual phenotype.

 

 

 

"Neurophysiological studies have documented physical differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals ([12], and reviewed in [13]). For example, females usually have cerebral hemispheres of similar size whereas in males the right hemisphere is larger. Also, functional connectivity of the paired amygdala with other parts of the brain is markedly sexually dimorphic. PET and MRI neuroimaging was used to show that both of these sexual dimorphisms in neuroanatomy are reversed in homosexual men and women [12]. Similar reversals in sexual dimorphism were found in the neural pathways that homosexual men and women used when they process two putative sex pheromones derived from testosterone (4,16-androstadien-3-one) and progesterone [estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol] ([14, 15], but see[16] for conflicting evidence on androstadienone). These studies illustrate how the biological underpinnings of HS are beginning to emerge as a new research focus in neurobiology."
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.201300033/full

 

 

 

 

More importantly, and taking into account what I said above, no one should turn a disordered condition into a defining characteristic of the human person. 

I was never turning it into a defining characteristic. I was simply stating that despite what hardships you describe as the homosexual condition, they should not be judged in their capacity to overcome adversity.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Actually, the more research that is being done in the area is increasingly in support of the idea that homosexuals ARE homosexual. There are some pretty clear neurobiological differences in homosexuals vs heterosexuals that results in a homosexual phenotype.

 

 

 

I was never turning it into a defining characteristic. I was simply stating that despite what hardships you describe as the homosexual condition, they should not be judged in their capacity to overcome adversity.

 

Lol but that doesn't mean we can't hate them! I agree with apoth 100%. Stop defending the untouchables.

Edited July 30, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[penguin31]

First off, no one IS gay.

 

Aww, you'd be almost adorable if you weren't so misguided.
 

Actually, the more research that is being done in the area is increasingly in support of the idea that homosexuals ARE homosexual. There are some pretty clear neurobiological differences in homosexuals vs heterosexuals that results in a homosexual phenotype.

 

SCIENCE!