America Nuns Struggle With Vatican For Change

[Apotheoun]

Because if they agreed with the ones that spoke out, they'd speak out too.  

The ancient maxim is: Silence means consent (Qui tacet consentire).

 

When I belong to an organization or am a member of a particular group and the organization or group puts forward a position that I do not agree with, I make it clear that I do not agree and why I refuse to assent to the position as put forward.

[Apotheoun]

In addition to what I said above, if the group I belong to is a voluntary association I will go so far as to resign from the group before being associated with something I object to for moral or ethical reasons.

[Apotheoun]

Thanks to all who have already clarified on this.  I did not check out the story because I don't want to get into a debate but if I could just put these conferences in context I would appreciate it!  I think this is the reason comunities as a whole are painted with this broad brush - the structure isn't something most people are familiar with and the way the conferences work is presented vaguely.  I don't think it is something that is done by the media on purpose.

 

The LCWR and the CMSWR are conferences of major superiors.  That means that communities don't belong to either the LCWR or the CMSWR - their general superiors do.  I am not a general superior so I don't know exactly how they decide which conference to belong to, but it would make sense that they would join the one that benefits them most.  Some general superiors belong to both. It's possible that a general superior would belong to neither.  

 

The point of these conferences isn't to be a further mode of government for sisters but a place to share resources and work on projects together.  You can take what you like and leave what you don't like.  There is no obligation to agree with everything the conference puts forth.  Information on legal issues, financial issues, and other practical non-religious issues are part of that as well as spiritual and religious life issues.  

 

I hope that clarifies a little about the purpose and nature of these conferences.   

Thank you for the clarification. The thing that still concerns me is that some of the religious superiors may belong to the LCWR because they agree with its stated position and goals, and that should scare any faithful Catholic.

[Anselm]

Quite, but of course that isn't possible when one is under holy obedience therefore the members of LCWR affiliated houses/congregations can only be assumed to agree with the opinions of the organisation that represents them, even if they don't.

[Anselm]

In addition to what I said above, if the group I belong to is a voluntary association I will go so far as to resign from the group before being associated with something I object to for moral or ethical reasons.

 

Ah yes, but that isn't an option easily available if one has made solemn profession...

[Apotheoun]

Ah yes, but that isn't an option easily available if one has made solemn profession...

That is when a person needs to go to his superiors (i.e., meaning those above his direct superiors) in order to seek redress of his grievance. Obedience is always obedience in truth.

[Anselm]

Quite, but taking into account the extent of change within such changes in the last 40 years I can't imagine that individual representations would get very far, sadly.

[Apotheoun]

Thankfully, when looking at the Legionaries of Christ situation, people eventually went to their superiors (i.e., those above their direct superiors) and the Church was able begin to correct the problems in that order. None of the Legionaries owed any obedience to Fr. Marcial Maciel when he was committing his crimes.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Quite, but taking into account the extent of change within such changes in the last 40 years I can't imagine that individual representations would get very far, sadly.

There is truth in what you are saying here, and that is probably why religious life in the United States (and many other countries) is in trouble.

[Anselm]

Quite, but isn't there a difference between those religious who believe that their superior has broken a criminal law from those who suspect that their superior's theology is a little suspicious?

[Apotheoun]

Quite, but isn't there a difference between those religious who believe that their superior has broken a criminal law from those who suspect that their superior's theology is a little suspicious?

I don't think so. Clearly you cannot go along with criminal activity, but I don't think it is right, proper, or just to go along with a person's heresies either. After all, we are talking about a person's eternal salvation.

[Anselm]

You're absolutely right, but I can imagine that many would be naturally much swifter in acting upon a law clearly broken than church dogma, whatever we may think of that.

 

Thankfully in the UK we don't appear to have such a division, though that may be because of a smaller number of religious overall.

[Apotheoun]

I have no problem saying that if I had lived in Constantinople in the first half of the 4th century I would not have gone along with Nestorios in his Christological heresy.

[Sister Marie]

But the orders aren't members of the club, their superiors are.  It's not like a governance thing, it's more like a social club.  Of course it's a problem when the LCWR leaders are doing not-kosher stuff, but like Sister Marie said, members of the orders aren't members of the LCWR, so we shouldn't make the assumption that they'd automatically agree with everything the LCWR does. 

Thanks Basilisa... my general superior belongs to the LCWR.  I honestly haven't heard any conversation within my community about any of the stances of the LCWR or anything like that.  It's not like its some big organization that really impacts our lives.  It doesn't impact mine at all.  The only time I hear about or talk about the LCWR is like this with people outside of religious life.  The average sister is really not involved at all.  She's busy living her religious life, ministering to people, praying... 

 

Part of the culture of religious life is not to put on show any disagreements for the public either... so if there are superiors who disagree with the direction of the LCWR but are still a part of it, they may have voiced their concerns to the proper authorities but they aren't going to go on NBC and tell everyone.  It's just not the way religious deal with problems.  The truth is none of us, other than the sisters directly involved, know what has been said or done behind the scenes.  For all we know, the visitation and the doctrinal assessment could be the result of general superiors who belong to the organization reporting issues.  

 

I don't know how to quote but I saw the next comment that was asking about obedience.  Are some people disobedient?  Absolutely.  For no good reason?  I'm sure there are some!  

 

However, I do think that there are a lot of religious women who have lost the trust in the Church that is necessary for obedience to be lived out.  Where I live right now, obedience was used as a way to cover up the rape and molestation of children by priests.  If a sister refused to drop an issue in a school of a child being molested or raped, in some circumstances, the diocese fired her even if there was proof.  If she wasn't fired, she was moved by her community out of fear of retribution by the bishop.  In that case, she owed no obedience to the bishop who was asking her to do something immoral... her obedience was primarily to the Gospel of Jesus.  But the bishops pitted her love for the Church and her vow of obedience against the Gospel.  You don't get over that easily.  Trust is needed for obedience to flourish and the relationships between the male leaders of the Church and women religious have been damaged.  I have personally never been through something like that, thank you Jesus, but if I had, I don't know if I would ever be able to trust another bishop to tell me the morally right thing to do.  It really would destroy me.  I have given my life to teaching children and bringing them closer to God and to have my conscience violated so a man could sexually abuse one of those children would really, well, destroy me.  I have heard horrible stories about some of the things that were done to my own sisters at the hands of the men of the Church and, even if they were immoral, the sisters had nowhere to turn.  (Tonight at dinner one of the sisters was just telling the story of a Msgr. who refused to allow anyone but a white and blonde girl be the May queen in a predominantly african american parish in recent history.  It was disgusting but since he was the pastor, it didn't matter how immoral and unchristian his decision was.)  

 

Now, I know, you aren't talking about covering up rape or molestation or discriminating against children based on the color of their skin.  But something like that really leaves a scar on a religious and its a wound that needs healing and there hasn't been any healing.  In my opinion, and it is only that, healing must happen before obedience can be forced.  Maybe the more virtuous thing would be to stoically deny oneself and grin and bear it and just give in and do what one is being told to do - but I don't think that makes for a good religious.  I think it makes for someone bitter and angry and hopeless and for someone who can't make sense out of what happened in the Church.  After the things I outlined above women religious need to hear that the Church values them and that they won't force them to be their foot soldiers in covering up abuse and discrimination.  It seems silly because, of course the Church doesn't want that, but it has been the reality for some women and that needs to be healed.      

[Apotheoun]

You're absolutely right, but I can imagine that many would be naturally much swifter in acting upon a law clearly broken than church dogma, whatever we may think of that.

 

Thankfully in the UK we don't appear to have such a division, though that may be because of a smaller number of religious overall.

That is a common enough viewpoint, but it is a strange one to me, because breaking a law can lead to punishment in this life; while embracing heresy (or remaining silent and possibly allowing others to be deceived) has eternal consequences.