Hurrah For Prince George!

[Era Might]

Popes dissolved the allegiance of Catholics to the kings of England long ago. But to be honest it does not even require a pope to do that, because no Catholic is bound to support something that is contrary to the natural moral law or divine revelation. For example: "gay marriage" laws - which of course have no legal standing because they are contrary to the moral norm - do not bind Catholics. And even without the exercise of papal or episcopal authority Catholics are - in conscience - duty bound to resist such enactments. The same holds with positive laws that are contrary to the good, which would include rulers - whether kings or presidents - no one is bound in conscience to support a person who has no real right to execise authority.

 

lolwut? Sounds like a form of secular donatism, only the pure and righteous can wield power legitimately.

[Basilisa Marie]

I'm just glad Apo has found someone else to pick on. :P

[Apotheoun]

It must be wonderful to have such a talent for identifying and condemning the sins of others.

Lack of judgment is not a virtue. Catholics are required to judge the actions of others, and if those actions do not conform to the moral law or to what has been divinely revealed, we are to point that out (as an act of charity), while simultaneously avoiding any action that might make us complicit in the actions of that individual.

[Apotheoun]

I'm just glad Apo has found someone else to pick on. :P

I don't pick on you, and that is true even when we disagree on certain points. You are a fellow Catholic, and that unites us in the body of Christ.

[Anselm]

Erm, no, British Catholics were absolved by Pius V from their allegiance to Elizabeth I, not all future British monarchs.

[Apotheoun]

lolwut? Sounds like a form of secular donatism, only the pure and righteous can wield power legitimately.

Not at all. It is called . . . following the moral law. The midwives in disobeying Pharaoh did just what I am saying all Catholics are required to do. We must fear God more than man. After all, human rulers can only kill the body they cannot damage our souls, 

[Apotheoun]

Erm, no, British Catholics were absolved by Pius V from their allegiance to Elizabeth I, not all future British monarchs.

No Catholic can be required to give allegiance to a heretic ruler.  By the way, that is why I said it does not take papal or episcopal action to dissolve the allegiance owed to a ruler. It is sad when Western Catholics are ignorant of their own scholastic tradition.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Era Might]

Not at all. It is called . . . following the moral law. The midwives in disobeying Pharaoh did just what I am saying all Catholics are required to do. We must fear God more than man. After all, human rulers can only kill the body they cannot damage our souls, 

 

okey dokey. Let me know when you plan your raid on Harper's Ferry.

[Anselm]

So does that mean that no Catholic should serve in the armed forces of any country without a Catholic absolute monarch? As a former officer of the Royal Navy do you think that means that I'm excommunicated?

[Era Might]

No Catholic can be required to give allegiance to a heretic ruler.

 

Catholics are so required every day...the fact that you accept U.S. laws means you are giving allegiance to heretic rulers.

[Apotheoun]

okey dokey. Let me know when you plan your raid on Harper's Ferry.

I don't remember the midwives undertaking an attack on pharaoh; instead, they simply refused to obey his command. Perhaps he killed them for their refusal to obey, scripture does not say. All a Catholic is required to do is to conscientiously object (i.e., not obey the false law), while also working to overturn the law through peaceful means (at least until those means have been exhausted). 

[Anselm]

No Catholic can be required to give allegiance to a heretic ruler.  By the way, that is why I said it does not take papal or episcopal action to dissolve the allegiance owed to a ruler. It is sad when Western Catholics are ignorant of their own scholastic tradition.

 

Consequently you must surely believe that you have a duty to move to a country with a Catholic head of state?

 

'Scholar Emeritus'? Laughable.

[Era Might]

I don't remember the midwives undertaking an attack on pharaoh; instead, they simply refused to obey his command. Perhaps he killed them for their refusal to obey, scripture does not say. All a Catholic is required to do is to conscientiously object (i.e., not obey the false law), while also working to overturn the law through peaceful means (at least until those means have been exhausted). 

 

lolwut? You just made my point...one can, in fact, accept the authority of a heretic, even if they don't accept individual laws or actions.

[Apotheoun]

Catholics are so required every day...the fact that you accept U.S. laws means you are giving allegiance to heretic rulers.

Actually I do not obey heretic rulers. I obey the laws of the United States that conform to the moral law. I don't obey laws contrary to right reason or the moral norm. Now, do I want the government of the United States to be Catholic? Sure. Is it something I foresee happening any time soon? No, and partially because the Catholics who have been elected to public office are rarely if ever really Catholic (e.g., Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, et al.).

[Anselm]

So which laws do you believe contravene your personal interpretation of the moral law?