The Lord Of The Rings.

[Nihil Obstat]

They are not allegories. <_< Thus said Tolkien.

[Archaeology cat]

His thesis was on Beowulf, and the influence is clear, IMO.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

In all charity, this is a fruitless conversation, Tab. Every time we talk about fantasy novels with you, you claim they are evil because of magic, we give proof by respected Catholic theologians that they are not and why, you say "Nuh uh." and we repeat the process. Why bother making these threads if you aren't open-minded in the slightest?

 

 

Magic is a far older concept then hollywood, and possibly even older then writing, and not really fantasy, although the whole magic fire coming out of a wand vaporizing an enemy is probably fantasy. I'm just concerned J.R. Tolkein perhaps was like lets say a free mason that believes we all can live in peace under the same banner in that where all human and nothing is truly wrong as long as we keep it secret, stupid example i know, and i'm not saying J.R. Tolkein was a free mason, though he possibly could have been. Whats that heresy called? Syncrotism ? 

[Nihil Obstat]

Tolkien was absolutely not a freemason. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Tolkien was absolutely not a freemason. 

 

 

You say that with such surety, give me reasons why your so sure, and are these reasons credible or just a soft heart for the movies and a supposed catholic with such a popular book and movie.  

[Nihil Obstat]

You say that with such surety, give me reasons why your so sure, and are these reasons credible or just a soft heart for the movies and a supposed catholic with such a popular book and movie.  

Everything he ever wrote and said indicates a person who was entirely devoted to Catholicism. He simply does not speak like a mason, he does not advocate any mason ideas, period. What you are saying is like me coming into this thread and saying "I think Tab is a Muslim. Prove me wrong." It makes no sense, there is no basis for it, and it is just plain silly.

[PhuturePriest]

Everything he ever wrote and said indicates a person who was entirely devoted to Catholicism. He simply does not speak like a mason, he does not advocate any mason ideas, period. What you are saying is like me coming into this thread and saying "I think Tab is a Muslim. Prove me wrong." It makes no sense, there is no basis for it, and it is just plain silly.

 

I'm also sensing some hostility towards J.R.R. Tolkien from Tab, with such lines as "supposed Catholic". J.R.R. Tolkien gave every indication that he was far more devoted to Catholicism than most, and I hope I either am already at or can reach his level of devotion.

[Nihil Obstat]

He was also quite the traddy, and sympathetic to anarchism to boot.
As a traddy, especially a European trad, he would have been especially intolerant of Freemasonry.

[Klarisse]

Magic is a far older concept then hollywood, and possibly even older then writing, and not really fantasy, although the whole magic fire coming out of a wand vaporizing an enemy is probably fantasy. I'm just concerned J.R. Tolkein perhaps was like lets say a free mason that believes we all can live in peace under the same banner in that where all human and nothing is truly wrong as long as we keep it secret, stupid example i know, and i'm not saying J.R. Tolkein was a free mason, though he possibly could have been. Whats that heresy called? Syncrotism ?

Magical phenomena are beyond natural human ability, but angels (and therefore demons) are naturally capable of such things. This is relevant because the wizards within the Lord of the Rings are angels. Magic is something they are capable of by their nature, without resorting to demonic intervention. The men do not possess such power. Man can and should coexist peacefully with the angels that obey God, so peaceful coexistence with the wizards is perfectly licit. Tolkein acknowledges that there very much is evil in the Lord of the Rings, including demonic evil, and it is constantly at battle with the good.

The beginning of the Silmarillion, Tolkein's histories of Middle Earth, makes the angelic nature of his wizards much clearer. Tolkein gives a description of how the world came to be that includes the demons' fall. He uses different words and writes from a different perspective than we're used to, since the culture writing the history is elvish. God is Eru or the One or Ilúvatar. The angels are the Ainur or the Holy Ones. Satan is Melkor, described as the mightiest of the Ainur. The angels who rule certain aspects of creation such as air and water according to God's plan are the Valar. My guess based on their role is that they're from the Virtues, one of the choirs of angels. The Maiar, which the wizards come from, are Valar that are not as powerful but nonetheless spirits by nature. Tolkein might have intended that they come from a lower choir, such as the Principalities.

 

The Silmarillion's creation story parallels the usual Catholic rendition of angelic history, filling in specific details and describing their test as a Great Music. After a while, Melkor decides to "interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar." Other Ainur follow, and still others stick with Ilúvatar's themes. After Ilúvatar stops the music, He shows them what they did with their music in a partial vision of physical creation's history, then creates the world by His word. Different Ainur take different roles, and some descend into the world, tying their power to it until it is complete. These are called the Valar, and the ones named take on roles in nature similar to polytheistic gods, with Melkor's followers trying to mess everything up. The key difference from gods is that the Valar serve Ilúvatar.

The Wikipedia page gives more detail about the wizards specifically, but the terms and history outlined above should help to decode the language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_%28Middle-earth%29

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Everything he ever wrote and said indicates a person who was entirely devoted to Catholicism. He simply does not speak like a mason, he does not advocate any mason ideas, period. What you are saying is like me coming into this thread and saying "I think Tab is a Muslim. Prove me wrong." It makes no sense, there is no basis for it, and it is just plain silly.

 

Sorry nihil if my queries offend you, i;m not up to date on J.R. Tolkeins Life and habits.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

He was also quite the traddy, and sympathetic to anarchism to boot.
As a traddy, especially a European trad, he would have been especially intolerant of Freemasonry.

 

Why did someone say he made up those characters in his books, when there all common European myths and Europeans hate witches to boot but are ok with wizards, how's that work? I can proove in general in the past Europeans where paranoid of and hated witches, the witch hunts which even some rogue catholic priests where involved in, which multiple popes denounced, it was a mini holocaust, unsure of the exact numbers of dead accused witches. Sure witchcraft is bad as is any form of the dark arts but we can't actually kill someone for it. And so comes the witch king lord of the rings, the feared enemy of europeans. But even worse what if the ring is the Eucharist and the all seeing eye is the father and the witch king is the devil/Jesus, and the holy spirit is the four horseman,which can only be seen from within the ring. You know i was told when you reach a very high stage in free masons you are to believe Jesus is the devil. I don't know why IF he was a free mason they would have him stay within the catholic faith, perhaps some kind of mortification perhaps, many cults have believed this is also a way to purify a person, throughout history. And i say IF he was a free mason. Which all sounds kind of intriguing from my imaginings and examining my conscience on the lord of the rings last nights and previously. And then you have the resurection of the dead in pt 1 with the orchs. Funny how Europeans can be ok with fairies, gnomes and wizards but not with other mythological creatures that a minority probably claim to be ok.

 

Or perhaps it was all a prophecy about ww2 and Hitler was the witch king and the resurrected orchs are the walking dead or his army. I pulled this all out of my mind, you all say you like fantasy so there's some fantasy for you, or is it deductive logic from watching the movies and what little i know about free masonry.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

And the big one that caps it off for me is the all seeing eye being evil. God is the all seing eye, he sees you when you rise and when you sleep, he even can see you when your on the toilet or having sex, he sees everything, does that urk you, catholics that are urked by the concept could be pushed out of the churches in droves indignated that God won't look away when where getting changed, and they start to think it is even evil and unfair.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

This is all just my opinion anyway, i have no proof, just a possibility that i thought of.

[Nihil Obstat]

 

You know it is probably sinful to accuse someone of being a Freemason with neither evidence nor sufficient reason, yes?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I have never accused him nihil, i said it could be possible. And even if he isn't, the all seeing eye is God and not evil, and he is very wrong about that and it could have caused terrible consequences to some Christians faith. I see you have gotten coye though with the picture, perhaps i have hit a nerve with the all seeing eye bit ? And the good lord knows, that there have possibly been things i have done present and past that have had drastic consequences for others, but on the other side of the coin great blessing also. The tounge is the most evil of all members and can be used to bless or curse, sometimes unwittingly for either. This could all just be an honest mistake and nothing to do with free masonry. And again i do truely shy away from fantasy and mythology, the old christians wouldn't go near it.