What If The Eucharist Was Only A Symbol?

[Cure of Ars]

Sometimes for arguments sake you have to consider the other point of view. What if Jesus was only speaking figuratively when he said we had to eat his flesh in John 6:53-58?

If we are going to take Jesus figuratively we then need to look at the figures of speech that was used during his time period and culture. For example, if you are watching a movie from the 50’s and they used the word gay they would not be using this term to mean homosexual. They would mean happy. Likewise we need to understand the figure of speech of eating ones flesh in it’s historical context of Jesus’ time. For the Jews, to eat the flesh and drink the blood of someone means to do harm to them, lie about them, or persecute them. This phrase figuratively speaking can be seen in the Bible.

Will these evildoers never learn? They devour my people as they devour bread; they do not call upon the LORD. (Psalm 14:4)

When evildoers come at me to devour my flesh, These my enemies and foes themselves stumble and fall. (Psalm 27:2)

“They eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from them, and break their bones. They chop them in pieces like flesh in a kettle, and like meat in a caldron.” Micah 3:3)

So if Jesus was talking symbolically then he would be saying, “He that reviles me has eternal life.” And this make absolutely no sense. Therefore, Jesus was not talking figuratively but literally. God bless

[cmotherofpirl]

If he was speaking figuratively there would be no Catholic Church today.

People rarely die ( like get eaten by lions) for something figurative.

[Dave]

Amen, y'all!!!!!

:D B) :rolleyes:

[Aloysius]

if the Eucharist wasn't real, we all would have been worshiping a piece of bread.

i tend to trust the God would not let His Church that He founded teach as doctrine idolotry.

thus, it is real.

Pax Christi! Amo Christi!

[VeraMaria]

if the Eucharist wasn't real, we all would have been worshiping a piece of bread.

i tend to trust the God would not let His Church that He founded teach as doctrine idolotry.

thus, it is real.

Pax Christi!  Amo Christi!

Amen to that! As you may have noticed, I'm not very skilled when I try to explain things....so thanks for doing it for me! B)

[Brother Adam]

if the Eucharist wasn't real, we all would have been worshiping a piece of bread.

i tend to trust the God would not let His Church that He founded teach as doctrine idolotry.

thus, it is real.

Pax Christi!  Amo Christi!

Thank you for that statement

[Cure of Ars]

Thank you for that statement

But if Jesus is in the Eucharist and you do not worship the sin is just as great.

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. (John 6:53)

So don’t think that it is a safer bet to stay out of the Catholic Church.

[Brother Adam]

But if Jesus is in the Eucharist and you do not worship the sin is just as great.

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. (John 6:53)

So don’t think that it is a safer bet to stay out of the Catholic Church.

I do. But I know, you're right and I'm wrong, and I'll probably go to hell for that, but you can't say for sure because only God can judge.

"Romans 3

22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus"

Ephesians 2

7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

[geetarplayer]

I like the idea of, "Those who live by the law will be judged by the law." Basically, if you're Baptist, you won't be judged on the Last Day by the Catechism. And if you're Buddhist, you won't be given a lecture about how you didn't follow the Pillars of Islam.

-Mark

[Brother Adam]

There is only one mediator between God and man: Jesus Christ.

I agree with what you said. A buddhist will not be judged by buddhist principles, nor a Satanist, by theirs. But we will be judged by God, based on perfection. And those washed clean by the blood of the lamb, by grace, through faith, will enter heaven.

[Carson Weber]

Also, if Jesus was speaking figuratively, he sure did a poor job at excluding the literal-ness of his speech and at explaining himself to his "many disciples" who departed, never to re-accompany him.

When that happened, Jesus didn't explain the figure of his speech; he didn't walk away disappointed at the response of the "many disciples".

No... Jesus turned to the 12 and asked them if they would depart as well.

And what was Peter's response? Not "Oh Jesus, of course we aren't going to depart - you see - we understood the figures of your speech; we aren't geniuses like those who just departed, for we understand the deeper meaning of what you just said, which is figurative".

No, that was not Peter's response. It was and remains:

"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

Edited August 23, 2003 by Carson Weber

[Cure of Ars]

I do. But I know, you're right and I'm wrong

It is more like the Word of God, Apostolic tradition for the past 2000 years, and the teaching authority that Christ established is right and you are wrong. I am not relying on my own intellect, genius, or understanding but on Christ. If I was relying on myself I would not say anything because I am not that smart and I would more than likely lead people away from Christ.

and I'll probably go to hell for that, but you can't say for sure because only God can judge.

I’m not judging you. I did not condemn you to hell. I’m just saying that it is more risky outside the Catholic Church than it is inside. You have to rely on invincible ignorance that is of no fault of your own if you are to be saved outside the visible Church. This is a risky position to be in. If the Catholic Church is true then you are in part rejecting Jesus. Jesus said, “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Luke 10:16) You could be rejecting Jesus in the Eucharist just like some of his disciples did in John 6:60 because they did not have faith in what Jesus said. But you are right I cannot see the grace in your heart and if you are willfuly rejecting this or not.

I am guessing that the quotes that you gave are saying that all you need is faith and that you do not need all this Catholic sacrament stuff. I can agree that all we need is faith depending on how you define faith.

By faith do you mean the intellectual faith that the devil has? The faith that can move mountains but is nothing apart from love (1 Cor 13:2)? Are you talking bout the faith that James is talking about which is dead apart from works (2:17). Or are you talking about the faith that works through love (Gal 5:6)? the “obedience of faith” (Roman 1:5) and the faith that is completed by works (James 2:22). We need more than just intellectually believing that Jesus is the Son of God. We also have to trust and try to do what he commands. If Jesus is God then to have faith and trust him we also need to do what he says and if we do not try to do this we really do not have saving faith.

That is why the Bible says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.” (John 3:36) So when Jesus says that we need to be baptized to be saved (Mark 16:16) this is just what it means. And when Jesus says that we need to eat his flesh to have eternal life (John 6: 54) that’s just what it means. And when he gives his ministers the power to forgive sins (John 20:22) he did. Sacraments give us his grace and that is why Jesus commands us to participate in the sacraments and that is why they are essential to our salvation. If they were not essential and did not give grace then Jesus would not command us to do them and our salvation would not be contingent on them. We can not work our way to heaven, nothing we do can earn it. It is a gift. This is why Catholics baptize babies even though babies can not do any works. They can not even believe. This is how much we believe that salvation is by God's grace apart from human works. But just because we are saved apart from human works it does not mean that we do not need divine grace filled works.

What I really want to talk about is why you think that Jesus is talking symbolically in regards to the Eucharist. Please explain why you believe this. God bless

Edited August 23, 2003 by Cure of Ars

[KennC]

It would seem to be pretty irresponsible to issue a command to remember Him with a ritual mimicking the most damned of Gods commands not to consume blood, the perfect way to make points with the Jews??? As if when instituteing the Eucharist He had forgotten the trouble He got into in John 6 for saying such things, ... yet this same ritual is the prime memorial for Himself and after loosing so many that day, this is the best way to draw all men to himself??, ... a far better memorial would be something similar to the Stations of the Cross to constantly remember what He went through.

Doesn't make sense if it was symbolic! ... but then the Eucharist can only be appreciated by the Spirit as He spoke by the Spirit that day.

Peace of Christ, Ken