Sspx Done With Talks With The Vatican

[Amppax]

That's the spirit!

Now make me a sandwich. It's not as difficult as you might think. All I need is turkey and bread -- nothing else. Pretty sweet deal to whoever I get married to.

Ignore the fetal one. He gets whiny when he's hungry.

[PhuturePriest]

Ignore the fetal one. He gets whiny when he's hungry.

 

Hunger is for the weak.

[Apotheoun]

So it's okay to reject the Pope's authority, as long as you abide by the moral teachings of the Church?  How exactly are Kovpak and Williamson better than Pelosi or Biden? 

Because the bishops you mentioned above, and by the way according to Western Catholic teaching they are true bishops, do not support the murder of the unborn as a "right." The murder of the innocent is far worse than refusing to submit to the pope on issues where he clearly can be wrong.

[Basilisa Marie]

Because the bishops you mentioned above, and by the way according to Western Catholic teaching they are true bishops, do not support the murder of the unborn as a "right." The murder of the innocent is far worse than refusing to submit to the pope on issues where he clearly can be wrong.

 

Abortion is morally more grave, definitely.  However, they ordained without permission from Rome, that's an excommunicable offense too. Maybe it's not fair to bring up Williamson, who denied the Holocaust and was eventually expelled from the SSPX for disobedience. But Kovpak's excommunication has never been lifted.  What they did flies in the face of apostolic succession, and thus the moral authority and legitimacy of the Church. That's why it doesn't seem all that different to me, on some level.  These people are bishops, and have a greater responsibility to get it right than lay people.  They have fewer excuses.  

 

I mean, I'm still sympathetic, and I'm certainly glad that Benedict lifted the excommunication for them, but for people who seem to be so into obedience and authority and tradition, it seems to me like some of them are awfully prideful and just care about doing what they want.  I think that's the most confusing part for me. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I understand their argument. However, I don't like their "More Catholic than the Pope" attitude. This is a matter of pride, really. They are too proud to bow down to the Pope, and they will only come in full communion if the Pope obeys them, and not the other way around. Humility goes a very long way, and I'm afraid it appears they are lacking in it.

 I would prop this if there were still props. As far as i'm aware the Primacy of the Pope is an infallible matter of faith and morals.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Apotheoun]

Abortion is morally more grave, definitely.  However, they ordained without permission from Rome, that's an excommunicable offense too. Maybe it's not fair to bring up Williamson, who denied the Holocaust and was eventually expelled from the SSPX for disobedience. But Kovpak's excommunication has never been lifted.  What they did flies in the face of apostolic succession, and thus the moral authority and legitimacy of the Church. That's why it doesn't seem all that different to me, on some level.  These people are bishops, and have a greater responsibility to get it right than lay people.  They have fewer excuses.  

 

I mean, I'm still sympathetic, and I'm certainly glad that Benedict lifted the excommunication for them, but for people who seem to be so into obedience and authority and tradition, it seems to me like some of them are awfully prideful and just care about doing what they want.  I think that's the most confusing part for me. 

Eastern Catholics ordain without Rome's permission all the time. The pope is not the be all and end all of the Church even if many Roman Catholics see it that way. It is odd when many people appear to place the pope above the dogmas of the Trinity and the Incarnation. That simply would not have been accepted in the ancient Church, nor should it be since there have been many heretical popes. Popes come and go, but the dogmas of the faith (i.e., God's triune nature and the incarnation of the Logos) are never-ending.

 

As far as abortion is concerned, it is not possible to support abortion (i.e., the murder of the innocent) and be a Catholic at the same time.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Apotheoun

[dUSt]

 

Now make me a sandwich. It's not as difficult as you might think. All I need is turkey and bread -- nothing else. Pretty sweet deal to whoever I get married to.

 

How will the Church make you a sandwich?

[PhuturePriest]

How will the Church make you a sandwich?

 

If we can turn bread into the literal body and blood of Christ, I think the Church can find it in itself to make me a sandwich.

[Apotheoun]

Abortion is morally more grave, definitely.  However, they ordained without permission from Rome, that's an excommunicable offense too. Maybe it's not fair to bring up Williamson, who denied the Holocaust and was eventually expelled from the SSPX for disobedience. But Kovpak's excommunication has never been lifted.  What they did flies in the face of apostolic succession, and thus the moral authority and legitimacy of the Church. That's why it doesn't seem all that different to me, on some level.  These people are bishops, and have a greater responsibility to get it right than lay people.  They have fewer excuses.  

 

I mean, I'm still sympathetic, and I'm certainly glad that Benedict lifted the excommunication for them, but for people who seem to be so into obedience and authority and tradition, it seems to me like some of them are awfully prideful and just care about doing what they want.  I think that's the most confusing part for me. 

And Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi are exemplars of submission to papal authority? Not only do they support the murder of the innocent, gay marriage, and any number of other reprehensible things, but they also receive holy communion while simultaneously giving lip service (when they even do that) to the authority of the Church. Members of the SSPX dissent on matters (mainly surrounding Vatican II) that are not dogmatic in nature, and their dissent from the actions of certain Church authorities does not involve support for an immoral agenda; while Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden support murder and the recognition of unnatural sexual relations as the equivalent of marriage between a man and a woman. Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are far worse than the SSPX because they reject both what God ordered by nature to be proper and true, while simultaneously acting hypocritically by pretending to accept the authority of the Church.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Basilisa Marie]

I'm still not convinced.  I never said that Pelosi and Biden were exemplars of papal obedience, or that the Pope is more important than the Trinity.  I'm saying that Roman bishops can and should be judged to a higher moral standard and that it's wrong to gloss over their disobedience to Rome.  Every faithful Catholic knows that Pelosi and Biden are wrong to be Pro-Choice.  Many of the SSPX bishops blur the distinction, making it hard to tell if they're right or wrong.  They're dangerous because they're ambiguous.  

[Apotheoun]

I'm still not convinced.  I never said that Pelosi and Biden were exemplars of papal obedience, or that the Pope is more important than the Trinity.  I'm saying that Roman bishops can and should be judged to a higher moral standard and that it's wrong to gloss over their disobedience to Rome.  Every faithful Catholic knows that Pelosi and Biden are wrong to be Pro-Choice.  Many of the SSPX bishops blur the distinction, making it hard to tell if they're right or wrong.  They're dangerous because they're ambiguous.  

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am stating what I believe, and clearly you and I do not share a common understanding of the nature of the faith on this issue. Such is life.

 

As far as "every Catholic" knowing that Pelosi and Biden are wrong on the issue of abortion is concerned, I agree, because Pelosi and Biden are not Catholic and so their opinions (and the opinions of other "pro-choice" people who continue to receive holy communion in Catholic parishes) do not count; while the members of the SSPX on the other hand are still Catholic, they just aren't in full communion with the pope (i.e., the Roman Church).

Edited June 30, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I'm still not convinced.  I never said that Pelosi and Biden were exemplars of papal obedience, or that the Pope is more important than the Trinity.  I'm saying that Roman bishops can and should be judged to a higher moral standard and that it's wrong to gloss over their disobedience to Rome.  Every faithful Catholic knows that Pelosi and Biden are wrong to be Pro-Choice.  Many of the SSPX bishops blur the distinction, making it hard to tell if they're right or wrong.  They're dangerous because they're ambiguous.  

Bishops will be judged as we all will be judged. If you or I fail to state the truth on the issue of abortion we will be judged by God accordingly, just as a bishop will. Now should the bishops officially excommunicate people who hold that abortion is a "right" or that "gay marriage" is acceptable? Yes, because those things are contrary to nature and to the faith, and nothing can ever make those things (to name just two immoral positions supported by Pelosi and Biden) acceptable.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I am, as far as the SSPX is concerned, somewhat indifferent, because the problems that they have with the pope and the Roman Church are not a concern for me as an Eastern Catholic. Probably the only place where I would disagree with the SSPX is in their tendency to promote the false "praestantia ritus latini" viewpoint of the pre-Vatican II Roman Church. But even that triumphalist viewpoint is hardly a major concern for me as an Eastern Catholic, because the bishops of the SSPX have no authority in any of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Personally I think the pope and his curia would be well served to make peace with the SSPX by allowing them to basically ignore Vatican II, and then they (i.e., the pope and the Roman curia) should move on and focus their attention on the new heretical hedonism that is causing so much turmoil in the modern Roman Church.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

I am, as far as the SSPX is concerned, somewhat indifferent, because the problems that they have with the pope and the Roman Church are not a concern for me as an Eastern Catholic. Probably the only place where I would disagree with the SSPX is in their tendency to promote the false "praestantia ritus latini" viewpoint of the pre-Vatican II Roman Church. But even that triumphalist viewpoint is hardly a major concern for me as an Eastern Catholic, because the bishops of the SSPX have no authority in any of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Personally I think the pope and his curia would be well served to make peace with the SSPX by allowing them to basically ignore Vatican II, and then they (i.e., the pope and the Roman curia) should move on and focus their attention on the new heretical hedonism that is causing so much turmoil in the modern Roman Church.

 

Props.