Great/grate Veils Of The Discalced Carmelite Nuns

[graciandelamadrededios]

I've never heard them called 'grate' veils -- I think it was a typo that has taken on a new life.  ;)  I've always heard and seen them referred to as 'great veils'.

 

If the only ones using them are the ones you mentioned, I think it is fair to say that the current OCDs aren't using them.  Those ladies, while I am sure well-intended, are technically not in Communion with us, unless something has changed...

 

One of the former prioresses at Cristo Rey (who just passed away on Pentecost this year, and was one of the holiest people I have ever met!) told me she was VERY glad tht they had done away with the face veil.  She felt they were unsafe, even though they may have been 'filmy'.   She told me at one point when they were still worn, she had been sent around with a workman who was working inside the enclosure.  (She was one of the few truly bilingual sisters, and was very much in the forefront of the construction of the Cristo Rey monastery for that reason in the 1950s.)   She said that she had an 'odd feeling' about him while she accompanied him with the hand bell (let me know if you don't understand that reference), although he was verbally pleasant enough.  She couldn't see too much through that veil... but she accompanied him as he moved through the house.  After he had left, still feeling something just wasn't right, she went back and found he had left open bowls of acid all over the place. 

 

She had been unable to see him doing it through the veil.

 

Sometimes there really are practical reasons for re-considering some of those customs....

 

The Cristo Rey Nuns and the Dallas Nuns are both still wearing the 'communion veil' when in the parlor.  

 

Its actually not a typo error since the information came from a Mother Prioress who had an experience wearing the Grate Veil which is connected to the word grating.  They are were also being referred to as Parlor/Parlour Veil.

 

I personally love this huge veil but people nowadays cannot understand if Nuns are veiled and they find it scary.....

[AnneLine]

Hmmm... then... maybe the typo went the other way.  Obviously could refer to the grating/grillework.... perhaps the English-speaking Carmels made the sound-alike switch... and it stuck.   Who knows?

[graciandelamadrededios]

Hmmm... then... maybe the typo went the other way.  Obviously could refer to the grating/grillework.... perhaps the English-speaking Carmels made the sound-alike switch... and it stuck.   Who knows?

 

Probably.....  I think it was an Australian Prioress who used the term.  I'll check....

[Chiquitunga]

Buffalo had the "Great Veil" which they were still using when I was there.  I thought it was beautiful.  I would think their two foundations in Alexandria and Brooklyn still have it.  I can't imagine why they would do away with it.

 

 

Inperpetuity, I'm moving your comment to this thread since we were just discussing this earlier today. Do you remember if Buffalo specifically called it the Great Veil?

 

That is interesting what you are discussing above AL and Gracian, about the terms. It probably did start out as one and in the English language, became the other. I remember Indwelling who was in the old Brooklyn Carmel calling it Great Veil. 

 

 

 

Buffalo, Alexandria & Brooklyn have a very large veil they still wear, although they do not wear it over their faces down to the chest anymore. I am not sure if they call this large veil the great veil still, but possibly. 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe this is the veil they wear when they visit with people in the parlor, although again, they do not cover their entire faces with it. I know they would also wear this veil when they go out, like when they are making a new foundation. I have seen a picture from a newsletter of them from the back when they were founding Brooklyn and also a bunch of pictures in a magazine when they founded Alexandria. They wore this very large veil. But for Holy Mass they have the smaller Communion veil they doesn't fall in big folds like this in the back. Both of these veils have a flap that can be pulled down to cover part of the face.

 

For the JMJ Carmels, I have never seen them wear this large veil with the folds at the back as the great veil was, but only a more streamline one. At the enclosure ceremony in Elysburg they wore this one pictured below. I have heard they have two different outer veils, one for visiting in the parlor and then the Communion veil. But again, I am pretty sure they don't have this very large veil that falls on the back in a folds as Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria do, or at least they don't wear them at occasions like making a foundation.

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/sets/72157622233735714/

 

 

My goodness, so many posts today on details about Carmel not necessary for our salvation  I think everyone else on VS are rolling their eyes, or getting a headache at least, oh well. sorry! 

 

 

To correct myself here, I looked through that magazine again and see that the Alexandria nuns were wearing a simpler large veil like these Elysburg nuns were wearing for their Enclosure Ceremony too.

 

But for Brooklyn, it was the larger veils that fold over in the back. I know Brooklyn's customs are especially Spain Spanish, so it might be connected with that. But for sure Buffalo also wears the larger/folds in the back/very Spanish looking veil too (which I believe is the Great Veil, just without wearing it entirely over the face anymore)

[graciandelamadrededios]

Oh well.  Whether they still still wear the great veil or communion veil, fact still remains that they no longer cover their entire face with them, a practice still in place in some US Carmels.

 

However, does Carmels in Europe do the same?  Or they still cover their entire faces with the great veil.

 

Oh, I remember now, some calls them Grand Veil too!

 

 

Gracian

[MarysLittleFlower]

Interesting thread! :)

[graciandelamadrededios]

I recently got a copy of "Carmel: Its History, Spirit, and Saints"  compiled by The Discalced Carmelites of Boston and Santa Clare, published in 1927.

 

It says that Pope Urban IV made the regulation that in all monasteries, each grate should be armed with points of iron.

 

St. Charles of Borromeo, during the Council of Milan, approved and generalized  the use of double grate as ordained by St. Francis of Paula for his religious and even designated the distance which should separate one from another.  He also wished the Religious to have their faces covered with a veil before persons from without, who should be obliged to enter into the cloister.

Edited July 21, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[graciandelamadrededios]

The Conceptionist Nuns version of Enclosure Veil during the time of St. Beatriz de Silva:

 

[Pia Jesu]

Let them roll their eyes!

 

Yes, Gracian and Chiqui...there are many of us on VS who appreciate the knowledge base,

research, photos and personal experience of those who are familiar with all-things-Carmelite!

It is a joy (and so interesting) to read such posts!  Deo Gratias...

 

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Now, I wonder where Chiqui is?

[graciandelamadrededios]

Discalced Carmelite Nuns wearing the Grate Veils on the Parlour Grating circa 1958

 

Edited October 9, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[truthfinder]

I believe that is Mother Thomas who wrote My Beloved.  Normally, the curtain would have been pulled for a non-related male guest, but it wouldn't make for a very good picture in a book.

[inperpetuity]

I was working in the infirmary before I entered and the prioress came in and was wearing what she explained to me was the Great Veil.  She didn't spell it for me though so I don't know how they spell it, but it was very long and came down to almost her knees but it was folded back on her head.  She told me when it was used, but I don't remember.

[VeniJesuAmorMi]

I was working in the infirmary before I entered and the prioress came in and was wearing what she explained to me was the Great Veil.  She didn't spell it for me though so I don't know how they spell it, but it was very long and came down to almost her knees but it was folded back on her head.  She told me when it was used, but I don't remember.

 

I wonder if a worker came into the enclosure so that could be why she was wearing it? This is just a thought because in the Carmel I was in there was three veils. One called the day veil which was the one sewed on to the toque and in the back it was tucked down behind the Scapular. The other was the Communion veil; only worn for Holy Mass. The other was the speak room veil. This was the large one that was worn when we went to the speak room, and then when someone had to come into the enclosure (doctor or workmen) then Reverend Mother would wear this veil, and whoever else was with her (and it could only be another professed Sister, unless the doctor was coming to see a Sister who was still a white veil then she would have to put on her speak room veil also.). All white veils (novices and those in first vows) would not go to the area they came in (but we couldn't go to the areas where the professed could go anyways) and if they happened to be in the novitiate then we would just have to make sure that we would not be seen.

[inperpetuity]

Yes, I believe Buffalo has 3 as well as you describe, but she only did that once and she didn't have it over her face.  I was thinking about this and because they always referred to the grille and not the grate It didn't occur to me to ask how they spelled the great/grate veil,lol. I just assumed it was great because it was so long.

Edited October 9, 2013 by inperpetuity