Great/grate Veils Of The Discalced Carmelite Nuns

[truthfinder]

You can see in the last picture how translucent the veils actually were, thus maintaining the privacy of the sister, but allowing her to see what she was doing reasonably well (providing she had half-decent eye-sight.)

[truthfinder]

double post

Edited June 30, 2013 by truthfinder

[maximillion]

Our Enclosure veils were of fine muslin type fabric, which effectively hides one from view but permits enough vision to the one wearing it, not be a danger.

 

We wore them for public Mass and for any occasion when in sight of the general public, ie, when accompanying a Sister in the Parlour. On Profession days we had permission to put back our veils in the parlour, and that was the only time people got to see our faces.

When I entered we had a big thick double grille in the Parlours, but this was replaced when I was a novice, by a simple single lattice.

Very soon after we were permitted to be in the Parlours without our Enclosure veils too. Then the double grille came down in Chapel and this was replaced by a thin muslin curtain.

In fact it was much harder to see the Sisters through the muslin than it had been through the grille - but this was because we did away with our Enclosure veils for Mass. this was in 1970.

[graciandelamadrededios]

Our Enclosure veils were of fine muslin type fabric, which effectively hides one from view but permits enough vision to the one wearing it, not be a danger.

 

We wore them for public Mass and for any occasion when in sight of the general public, ie, when accompanying a Sister in the Parlour. On Profession days we had permission to put back our veils in the parlour, and that was the only time people got to see our faces.

When I entered we had a big thick double grille in the Parlours, but this was replaced when I was a novice, by a simple single lattice.

Very soon after we were permitted to be in the Parlours without our Enclosure veils too. Then the double grille came down in Chapel and this was replaced by a thin muslin curtain.

In fact it was much harder to see the Sisters through the muslin than it had been through the grille - but this was because we did away with our Enclosure veils for Mass. this was in 1970.

 

Did you enter Carmel or Poor Clares?

[Chiquitunga]

Did you enter Carmel or Poor Clares?

 

In case she doesn't see this, she was in neither, but a new forming cloistered community in France dedicated to the Sacred Heart (which doesn't exist anymore) She has mentioned this other times on the phorum (otherwise I wouldn't post this).

[graciandelamadrededios]

In case she doesn't see this, she was in neither, but a new forming cloistered community in France dedicated to the Sacred Heart (which doesn't exist anymore) She has mentioned this other times on the phorum (otherwise I wouldn't post this).

 

What is the name of the community?  Why are they extinct?  Who was the Founder / Foundress?

[Chiquitunga]

What is the name of the community?  Why are they extinct?  Who was the Founder / Foundress?

 

I don't know but that would be something I personally wouldn't share on an online forum. You can ask maximillion though. 

[graciandelamadrededios]

I don't know but that would be something I personally wouldn't share on an online forum. You can ask maximillion though. 

 

Oh, sorry!

 

I hope she is reading this and will PM me.  It is interesting....

[Chiquitunga]

I love the great veil, Buffalo uses them still, good for them, so I would think also Alexandria and Brooklyn would too.

 

 

Would the JMJ Carmel's use them?

 

You mean they still wore a veil that covers the entire face and falls down to the chest?

 

Buffalo, Alexandria & Brooklyn have a very large veil they still wear, although they do not wear it over their faces down to the chest anymore. I am not sure if they call this large veil the great veil still, but possibly. 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe this is the veil they wear when they visit with people in the parlor, although again, they do not cover their entire faces with it. I know they would also wear this veil when they go out, like when they are making a new foundation. I have seen a picture from a newsletter of them from the back when they were founding Brooklyn and also a bunch of pictures in a magazine when they founded Alexandria. They wore this very large veil. But for Holy Mass they have the smaller Communion veil they doesn't fall in big folds like this in the back. Both of these veils have a flap that can be pulled down to cover part of the face.

 

For the JMJ Carmels, I have never seen them wear this large veil with the folds at the back as the great veil was, but only a more streamline one. At the enclosure ceremony in Elysburg they wore this one pictured below. I have heard they have two different outer veils, one for visiting in the parlor and then the Communion veil. But again, I am pretty sure they don't have this very large veil that falls on the back in a folds as Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria do, or at least they don't wear them at occasions like making a foundation.

 

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28378419@N03/sets/72157622233735714/

 

 

My goodness, so many posts today on details about Carmel not necessary for our salvation  I think everyone else on VS are rolling their eyes, or getting a headache at least, oh well. sorry! 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Let them roll their eyes!

[Chiquitunga]

pictures from the Rubio, Venezuela Carmel (1990) where they are wearing the very large veils with the folds at a Solemn Profession ~ https://plus.google.com/photos/104536453016555060669/albums/5786200923789335441?banner=pwa  I have seen pictures from a Solemn Profession at Valparaiso (which were quickly taken offline a few years back) and they definitely did not have this very large veil, while again, Buffalo, Brooklyn & Alexandria do. 

[graciandelamadrededios]

Do they call this large veil as Grate/Great Veil?

 

As per observation, the only Carmels wearing the old, Grate/Great Veils are the Carmels (Mother and Daughter foundations) founded by Archbishop Lefebvre's blood sister, Mother Christiane - which can be trace from French line Carmels and one in the USA in Colorado Springs which is from Spanish/Mexican origin.  These Carmels pulls down their Grate/Great Veil down to their chests.

 

 

 

 

[Chiquitunga]

Do they call this large veil as Grate/Great Veil?

 

That I don't know. Would have to ask. I'll let you know if I find out.

[graciandelamadrededios]

That I don't know. Would have to ask. I'll let you know if I find out.

 

Thanks, Chiqui!

[AnneLine]

I've never heard them called 'grate' veils -- I think it was a typo that has taken on a new life.  ;)  I've always heard and seen them referred to as 'great veils'.

 

If the only ones using them are the ones you mentioned, I think it is fair to say that the current OCDs aren't using them.  Those ladies, while I am sure well-intended, are technically not in Communion with us, unless something has changed...

 

One of the former prioresses at Cristo Rey (who just passed away on Pentecost this year, and was one of the holiest people I have ever met!) told me she was VERY glad tht they had done away with the face veil.  She felt they were unsafe, even though they may have been 'filmy'.   She told me at one point when they were still worn, she had been sent around with a workman who was working inside the enclosure.  (She was one of the few truly bilingual sisters, and was very much in the forefront of the construction of the Cristo Rey monastery for that reason in the 1950s.)   She said that she had an 'odd feeling' about him while she accompanied him with the hand bell (let me know if you don't understand that reference), although he was verbally pleasant enough.  She couldn't see too much through that veil... but she accompanied him as he moved through the house.  After he had left, still feeling something just wasn't right, she went back and found he had left open bowls of acid all over the place. 

 

She had been unable to see him doing it through the veil.

 

Sometimes there really are practical reasons for re-considering some of those customs....

 

The Cristo Rey Nuns and the Dallas Nuns are both still wearing the 'communion veil' when in the parlor.  

 

 

Edited July 13, 2013 by AnneLine