Perpetual Discernment?

[Gabriela]

I was going to post, but Anneline already said everything I was going to say, and then some, and way better than I could have. Go, Anneline. ;-)

 

I second Eowyn's suggestion to you, JS, to hang around VS and just read random threads. All the agony of discernment is published here...

[Chiquitunga]

This thread is also filled with resources on the cloistered contemplative vocation, http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/127340-help-need-resources-on-cloistered-life-for-parents/  A bunch of the posts there have links to various articles, etc. :like: (which you might miss skimming through it quickly, to let you know)

 

All the posts here so far have been great, btw... inperpetuity, nunsense, AnneLine, and all. I also almost felt like this could have been one of my relatives too!! except that I am not a mature vocation, but I've been on this journey for well over six years... Six years is really not long these days for discernment, especially for an older vocation. 

 

Another one who had a long journey (whom I'm getting a lot of encouragement from) was Sr. Mary of the Holy Trinity, http://www.amazon.com/Life-Message-Mary-Holy-Trinity/dp/089555318X  She was in and out of three communities (not to mention the many others she wrote to and visited) in various countries before she found her home with the Poor Clares in Jerusalem. Also the revelations which she received from Our Lord (not unlike St. Faustina or St. Margaret Mary) touch a lot on the cloistered vocation, which is a particular call from God, rather than a decision on our part... ie, we do not choose this life on our own because for instance we don't want to work with children or the elderly, but (for the one who truly has this vocation) because it is His will that some serve Him in a totally hidden apostolate in this way, which is a different vocation from active religious life... again, not the decision of the discerner. 

 

Anyway, so the book with her revelations is here, http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Legacy-Sister-Mary-Trinity/dp/0895551659/ref=pd_sim_b_1  I love her so much and am so grateful to Our Lord for a dear friend who introduced me to her :pray:

[BarbTherese]

 

 

(By the way... you get the double post effect if you 'resubmit' a post... they sometimes take a LONG time to register on Phatmass.  I've found it helpful to open a second window and see if the post has registered... usually it will appear there BEFORE your new-post window has disappeared....)

 

 

 

I had/have similar problems with double posting.  What I have taken to doing is copying my post then clicking onto F5 which refreshes the thread - most often my post will appear, but if not then I simply repost the copy - or just give up altogether.

[Ex Tyburn Junior]

Can I just chip in from my experience of 'the other side of the grille', so to speak?

 

In my time at Tyburn (5 1/2 years) we saw a LOT of ladies coming to discern vocations. Many of them were older ladies. As a younger sister, I was encouraged to talk with them and try to help them out a bit.

 

I must admit that most of them - NOT ALL OF THEM; just most - didn't seem to have any signs of a real call from God. They were pious women, and good women, but who in some cases came with a 'shopping list' of what they wanted and didn't want in a community.

 

Some were also (only too clearly) older single ladies looking for a kind of sympathetic Catholic retirement village. They had no idea they would be called upon to work physically hard to maintain the convent and the life we lived there. I think some of them thought we still had lay sisters ... 

 

Some were genuine odd-bods who would have trouble fitting in anywhere, and would very quickly find the psychological pressures of an enclosed contemplative community were too much for them. We had an older woman live-in once who ended up slapping one of our older sisters!

 

We also had a couple of older women who actually entered as postulants who were also in this category - oddbods, with limited insight into religious life - but who pretty much refused to leave until they were kindly and firmly counselled out. This is where I learned that 'discernment is a two-way street'. This also comes as a surprise to many older women who come to convents, as they seem to think that they will be leapt upon and ushered in on the spot because orders are 'desperate' for vocations. Not so, ladies. Not so.

 

Convent-shopping - and there are women who do this - is not really a good way of going about finding what God wants and is calling you to do. You do have to go and try the life, and if you don't like it, it's good to move on quickly, and that's commendable that your relative has moved on when she hasn't found what she's clearly looking for.

 

I know there are saints and holy men and women who have found 'late' vocations. But realistically, as time passes, the likelihood of finding the 'right' place does diminish. It's like having a baby - it CAN happen at a much older age, but it's just much less likely! So it's also good to encourage her to explore other options like becoming a consecrated virgin or making private vows. There are many many ways a single woman can do good in the Church and in the world, and still have a contemplative inner life.

 

But yes - beware the professional middle-aged long-distance discerner. I know that religious orders are very wary of these women, and with good reason, which may also explain your relative's lack of success so far.

[Ex Tyburn Junior]

I've re-read your original post - may I just pick up on a couple of red flags I saw there, justsayin?

 

"She does not currently have a spiritual advisor and avoids discussion with family."

 

I can understand avoiding the discussion with the family, as often the family is the worst impediment to religious life. But the lack of spiritual director or advisor is a big red flag. This needs to change if she's not to become a professional long-distance discerner.

 

Someone who isn't receiving spiritual direction is wandering in the dark. Has she ever had a spiritual director? Or has she had a string of them but has gotten rid of them all because they're 'no good' and 'don't understand her'?

 

"We truly do not think she will ever become a nun as she complains in every place about basic features of monastic life related to daily schedules, regular work, food, use of computers, their particular style of worship, respectful obedience within a hierarchy, etc."

 

This is the second red flag. Monastic, contemplative life in every time and place is regulated. How regulated, is what varies, but it's all regulated. You live by a Rule. You surrender your will. You are no longer your own person. So if you don't have computers, you don't have computers. If you fast on Fridays, you fast on Fridays. That's just the way it is.

 

A person who is going to find fault with this is probably not going to last very long in any community living under a rule and under obedience. We had the occasional lovely girl come and live-in who wanted to do Adoration all the time. But you can't do Adoration all the time, because you're rostered to do it at particular times, and there's other work that needs to be done in the other times, if you're living under a Rule in common life and in poverty.

 

Does your relative read much about contemplative life, outside of the brightly-coloured vocations literature pamphlets? Sometimes people think of 'contemplative' life as sitting in a walled garden, gazing wistfully at a rose and thinking sweet thoughts about Jesus. I remember distinctly lying face down on wet concrete in a big apron, with my arm up to my armpit down a dirty blocked sewer pipe at Tyburn, and thinking 'I don't remember them mentioning this in the vocations literature ...'

 

REAL books about religious life include those by Mother Mary Francis on the Poor Clares. They are full of warmth, but also full of realism about the difficulties and challenges and sheer hard work of contemplative life. Reading about real contemplative life might help your relative.

 

I do hope she finds peace. But I suspect she won't find it in a community.

 

[Antigonos]

I've re-read your original post - may I just pick up on a couple of red flags I saw there, justsayin?

 

"She does not currently have a spiritual advisor and avoids discussion with family."

 

I can understand avoiding the discussion with the family, as often the family is the worst impediment to religious life. But the lack of spiritual director or advisor is a big red flag. This needs to change if she's not to become a professional long-distance discerner.

 

Someone who isn't receiving spiritual direction is wandering in the dark. Has she ever had a spiritual director? Or has she had a string of them but has gotten rid of them all because they're 'no good' and 'don't understand her'?

 

"We truly do not think she will ever become a nun as she complains in every place about basic features of monastic life related to daily schedules, regular work, food, use of computers, their particular style of worship, respectful obedience within a hierarchy, etc."

 

This is the second red flag. Monastic, contemplative life in every time and place is regulated. How regulated, is what varies, but it's all regulated. You live by a Rule. You surrender your will. You are no longer your own person. So if you don't have computers, you don't have computers. If you fast on Fridays, you fast on Fridays. That's just the way it is.

 

A person who is going to find fault with this is probably not going to last very long in any community living under a rule and under obedience. We had the occasional lovely girl come and live-in who wanted to do Adoration all the time. But you can't do Adoration all the time, because you're rostered to do it at particular times, and there's other work that needs to be done in the other times, if you're living under a Rule in common life and in poverty.

 

Does your relative read much about contemplative life, outside of the brightly-coloured vocations literature pamphlets? Sometimes people think of 'contemplative' life as sitting in a walled garden, gazing wistfully at a rose and thinking sweet thoughts about Jesus. I remember distinctly lying face down on wet concrete in a big apron, with my arm up to my armpit down a dirty blocked sewer pipe at Tyburn, and thinking 'I don't remember them mentioning this in the vocations literature ...'

 

REAL books about religious life include those by Mother Mary Francis on the Poor Clares. They are full of warmth, but also full of realism about the difficulties and challenges and sheer hard work of contemplative life. Reading about real contemplative life might help your relative.

 

I do hope she finds peace. But I suspect she won't find it in a community.

 

Your post reminds me very much of being in nursing school.  Nursing is very, very different from the public perception of it, and there really isn't any good way to explain until you are in it.  About 30% of my class dropped out, and this was normal for the time.  Generally, the girls would say the studies were too hard, but that really was not the problem.  Wanting to help suffering humanity is very different from actually having to deal with considerable drudgery that seems to have no point and lots of arcane rules that determine the precise way a task is done.

 

I can't PM, but I wanted to say that I enjoy your posts, for their hard-headedness.  While one needs to be circumspect, being PC all the time is results in such vagueness and often sugar-coating.  It may not sound so nice to call a spade a spade regarding the situation in a particular community, I can't help but think that, in the final analysis, this helps those discerning to make more realistic decisions.  One of the reasons I like nursing is that it ISN"T about being dreamy-eyed and wandering about, soothing fevered brows with a cool and tender hand, it's about understanding why the brow is fevered in the first place and planning a system of action to cope with it, as well as knowing what to observe about that fevered brow.  IIRC, it was Teresa of Avila who said that she needed fewer saints and more arms to do the scrubbing, and I remember, in the book "The Nun's Story" how Sister Luke was surprised that it was the mundane activities of the convent which she found more difficult than the strictly religious duties [talk about going from the sacred to the profane! :-)) ]

[Ex Tyburn Junior]

You're welcome, Antigonos. There is very little room for the dreamy-eyed wanderers-about in real religious life, as in nursing. It's real, it's hard, it's rewarding, it's tiring, and it's all worth it in the end.

 

But you won't get there spending hours in the garden writing in your 'spiritual journal' and sleeping in, while the rest of the community's been up since 5am. This is a hint - if you go to 'live in', then really try to 'live in' as much as you can. Don't treat the place like a spiritual hotel where you follow your private spiritual routine and let the community simply carry you along. That's not a good way to find out if a particular community is for you.

 

I was lucky; I knew straight away where to come, but I've had a lot of very interesting and enlightening conversations with aspirants who came to my community. I think I saw the whole gamut from A to Z.

[ACS67]

I also want to thank you for your post Ex Tyburn Junior.  Your post are "real".  One of the reasons I left Phatmass and Vocation Station in particular was because often times it was just too "dreamy" for me and overly "romantic".   I don't mean to sound harsh ladies.  I know most of you on here are a lot younger than me and perhaps I was "dreamy" once too.  But in any case, I grew up hard.  My daddy made us work and we worked hard, very little time for "dreaming" about anything! :)   So, for me, If religious life did not involve a lot of hard work, and I mean manual labor, I would be bored to tears and quite frankly I would not want it. 

 

I am a little shocked at some of the women you describe, however.  I cannot imagine NOT knowing that religious life (cloistered life in particular) would involve work and hard work, particularly on ones self and that the women/aspirants would be that self-centered.  I knew individualism in our society had run amok but...wow!  Ignoring the community to do your will...wow.  Interesting. 

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

"I remember distinctly lying face down on wet concrete in a big apron, with my arm up to my armpit down a dirty blocked sewer pipe at Tyburn, and thinking 'I don't remember them mentioning this in the vocations literature ...'

 

You mean I am not the only one who has done things like this?! :saint2:

 

 

[Eowyn]

"I remember distinctly lying face down on wet concrete in a big apron, with my arm up to my armpit down a dirty blocked sewer pipe at Tyburn, and thinking 'I don't remember them mentioning this in the vocations literature ...'

 

You mean I am not the only one who has done things like this?! :saint2:

 

 

I wish we still had props.  Nuns have all the fun.

[juchu]

Does your relative read much about contemplative life, outside of the brightly-coloured vocations literature pamphlets? Sometimes people think of 'contemplative' life as sitting in a walled garden, gazing wistfully at a rose and thinking sweet thoughts about Jesus. I remember distinctly lying face down on wet concrete in a big apron, with my arm up to my armpit down a dirty blocked sewer pipe at Tyburn, and thinking 'I don't remember them mentioning this in the vocations literature ...'

 

 

You mean I am not the only one who has done things like this?! :saint2:

 

 

.... :saint2: This is good :).... I also had nowhere in my vocation literature to be in the kitchen around 4:45 in the morning preparing breakfast for the entire community and guests making litres and litres of coffee, black tea and tea.... But it makes you appreciate the coffee more on the other days when somebody else prepared it for you :bananarap: :bounce:

 

A sister who is almost 100 is saying quite often to me that when you enter you change your whatever "logy" (whatever one studied.... bioLOGY, TheoLOGY...) into "Panologie" (pano is the slang for whatever peace of old cloth which is used to clean dirty think like the entries to the wastewater system and other things.)

 

Yes, we are all really crazy to live this life. St. Paul was right in the lettre to the Corinthians.... ;)

[just-sayin]

Grrr. No wonder most religious orders have some age guidelines. I hope I have gained from my life experience, but I keep losing a lot of other stuff as I get older. I just wrote a long post and somehow lost it. It is probably in that limbo with the lost keys, glasses, umbrellas, and important papers. Well, I won't try to reconstruct.
But once again, thanks to all. What a great community! And you all write so well too! You have answered my questions with honesty, wisdom, and good advice. Anneline is right. The person tired of discernment drama is ME and I do feel taken advantage of as a six year source of support, but it is up to me to set my own limits. To be fair to my FM, when I said she was mature, I meant she had lived independently for many years but she is still within the age guidelines of some orders. She grew up in a more liberal Catholic church and did not go to Catholic schools, so her notions of monastic life were formed by Masterpiece Theater and mystery novels.(Who knew there were so many murders in rustic abbeys on windswept coasts?)
I'm of an older generation and, ACS67, I was also shocked that my FM seemed unaware of the hard work that is part of monastic life. Ex Tyborn Junior, thanks for just-sayin that unrealistic expectations are all too common, and FM's comments can be red flags.
However, I think FM has a much better understanding now, and it is to her credit that she is still struggling to find her way, wherever that might be. Your stories on VS help me to see that.
The thread that Chiquitunga suggested is perfect for me. I realize other families experience these conflicts. In addition,I want to read so many of the sources you listed, really for my own spiritual development. Maybe that is part of what led me to PM.
Inperpetuity's advice to leave FM's discernment between her and God if she is not asking me for advice (and she is not) is the best. I am grateful to those in religious life who have counseled her, and will suggest she get in touch with her first spiritual advisor who lives in another city. (It's not ADVICE, it's just a suggestion.)
I am sad to read that some of the posters on VS feel like failures in their journey. I have felt that way too in relationships, family, and work. I probably fail more often than I succeed. But I would never feel that my FM is a failure, and I have told her that many times. What an adventure she is having! I think we are all secretly a bit envious, though we can't imagine ourselves cleaning out sewer pipes or making coffee for other people at 4:45 in the morning. Talk about crazy, when you read the lives of saints aren't you glad that you aren't FM's in their families? I probably would have been the first in line to tell St. Francis to put his good clothes back on and obey his parents.
So prayers for understanding, patience, and love.

[Chiquitunga]

my guess is that this book would do a good job at giving a realistic portrayal of Carmelite life :smile4:

 

 

little discussion about it here ~ http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/129714-carmelites-and-shoes/?p=2602663

 

Something I always remember after discerning out of my last community, the muscles in my arms were visibly larger! seriously, I used to observe in the mirror just how much stronger they were than before I entered!  :flex:

 

 

p.s. Just-sayin, I just saw your post while I was working on mine. I'm glad you found that thread helpful! :like:

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

my guess is that this book would do a good job at giving a realistic portrayal of Carmelite life :smile4:

 

 

little discussion about it here ~ http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/129714-carmelites-and-shoes/?p=2602663

 

Something I always remember after discerning out of my last community, the muscles in my arms were visibly larger! seriously, I used to observe in the mirror just how much stronger they were than before I entered!  :flex:

 

 

p.s. Just-sayin, I just saw your post while I was working on mine. I'm glad you found that thread helpful! :like:

 

Does anyone here knows which specific Carmel in the U.K. published "The Nun's Answer" and "Catch Us Those Little Foxes?"