Exploring God's Will

[MarysLittleFlower]

o say there may very well have been a man called JOB that had a similar experience. And i don't doubt God can cast down a pillar of fire from heaven or a cloud (exodus.) But the whole devil working for God i don't believe.

 

Maybe the idea there is that - the devil doesn't love God, but his power is limited and even evil can't operate beyond God's permissive will? permissive not direct. But we shouldn't blaspheme God's goodness. He is good, and the devil is evil... the reason He permits certain things can ONLY be for a good reason, such as bringing greater good out of it. So the enemy does certain things out of hatred, and God comes and brings a greater good and fixes the situation or the effects of evil, - think of how that must defeat the enemy. :) and we know God would win the war! it's important to pray for souls though, because we have free will and if we cooperate with grace, we can be with God.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I kind of agree with you mary's little flower, but i still have great doubts of good coming directly from evil, read the rest of my reasons why...

Also i just wanted to point out another part of JOB. I thought the devil had a bet with God, satan said to God that if God removed his protection from Job, i think the actual words where fence from around JOB, and that he the devil could make JOB curse Gods name. God was so sure of JOBS faithfullness to him that he allowed this.But never fear God promises he will never give us his children/christians more than we can handle. Not all have the capacity to suffer so grievously as Job had, though some may.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[MarysLittleFlower]

There's also the idea of God's Mercy and Justice. Both His Mercy and His Justice are Holy. We know that God is good... and He has compassion, and is opposed to sin which is not good but evil, because there is nothing evil in God. He is giving us a time for Mercy.. to choose Him... afterwards, there's the time of Justice. This was told to St Faustina. We would face His Justice if we have refused His Mercy... so it's really up to our choice. God longs to show us His Mercy.

 

I remember something in Divine Mercy in My Soul, God was about to chastise a city for its sins, but as St Faustina prayed the Divine Mercy chaplet, the chastisement was mitigated and God showed the city His Mercy. So it's good to pray for this. Mary said in one of her apparitions - Her Son Jesus allows Himself to be moved :) He is merciful to us, and He wants us to ask. And God is always good. There are things that I don't understand about God's will because I'm only a creature... but I think if we simply trust that He is good, then everything else would make sense, even more difficult questions like why is there suffering? why chastisement? even free will... if people distrust God's goodness, they might not see how free will is such a great gift to us, that was given to us with love. Through trust and love, we can understand more about God, and the parts we don't understand, we can have peace with, because we know He's a good Father and knows what is best for us :)

Edited July 27, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I kind of agree with you mary's little flower, but i still have great doubts of good coming directly from evil, read the rest of my reasons why...

Also i just wanted to point out another part of JOB. I thought the devil had a bet with God, satan said to God that if God removed his protection from Job, i think the actual words where fence from around JOB, and that he the devil could make JOB curse Gods name. God was so sure of JOBS faithfullness to him that he allowed this.But never fear God promises he will never give us his children/christians more than we can handle. Not all have the capacity to suffer so grievously as Job had, though some may.

 

Maybe it could help you to look at this way: the good part comes from God... not from the evil part directly.

 

An analogy: for example it's not suffering that sanctifies us, but suffering offered to God with the Cross of Christ. So it's not the bad part itself that brings the good, but God does this, because He is good.

 

Or another different example, more about evil rather then the effects of evil: let's say the enemy tempts someone... but God rewards them for overcoming it. The good, the reward, came from God, not from the devil. Temptation is an opportunity for us to show God how much we love Him, by rejecting the temptation :)

 

It seems that Job was tested, but God already knows our hearts and how much we can bear, and He can supply for all our weakness with grace, so we don't have to fear :) we only need to fear offending God... we should trust Him as a Father.

Edited July 27, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Well, this is an interesting discussion.  My question about God's will is why is it that people canonize their thoughts and feelings and pious sentiments as "God's will" by saying they will "pray about something" (the implication being that all of a sudden, they know God's will because they prayed about it!).  Isn't it true that without a direct revelation from God we don't really know God's will in particular matters except for avoiding sin? 

 

Often when I don't know something I say that I'll "pray about it", but  I don't mean by that to canonize my thoughts after I've prayed, - rather that I want to submit the issue to God instead of just thinking about it on my own. It's better to think about it together, with Jesus, than on my own :) God can give us guidance using different ways, not only through extraordinary means like locutions or visions... I think just praying about something and then having deep peace about an answer, that could be from God, but the particulars are something to discuss with an SD perhaps. To me, saying that I'll "pray about it" seems better somehow than just saying that I'll think about it, because no matter how much I think about something spiritual, I won't the answer without God's help, and He helps us in different ways: through prayer, through the Church, etc. It's just a way to keep myself open, so I won't just rely on my own understanding.

 

I personally find this Scripture verse encouraging: "Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence. In all thy ways think on Him, and He will direct thy steps." (Proverbs 3:5, Douay-Rheims).

 

I read that the more we trust in God, the more graces we would receive. This is what Jesus told St Faustina. I think if we come to Him with trust, then we're not blocking the help He wants to give us, and the type of help and the timing of it: that's His decision. :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

I just wanted to share this beautiful quote too :) there's so much about God that I didn't know about, but found out from the things He's told the Saints and others He chose to give messages too. It all fits in with Scripture so well too. There are so many times in Scripture when someone trusted Jesus and the trust and humility obtained His answer, like the centurion, the good thief, and many others.

 

"O Jesus, what should I add to these prayers to make them yet more efficacious?" Gertrude once asked. Turning to her with a countenance full of sweetness, Our Saviour replied, "Confidence alone easily obtains all things!"...Once when St Gertrude was troubled with temptations, she implored the Divine assistance. Our Lord, in His exceeding mercy, spoke thus to her: "Anyone suffering from human temptations, who flees to My protection with firm confidence, belongs to those of whom I can say: 'One is My dove, my chosen one out of thousands, who has pierced My Heart with one glance of her eyes.' And this confidence wounds My Heart so deeply that were I unable to relieve such a soul, it would cause My Heart a sadness which all the joys of heaven could not assuage... The confidence that I truly have the power, the wisdom and the goodness to aid a soul faithfully in all her miseries, is the arrow which pierces My Heart, and does such violence to My love that I can never abandon her..." (Our Lord to St Gertrude. From the booklet "St Gertrude the Great, Herald of Divine Love", TAN publishers, page 19).

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Awesome post Maryslittleflower, alleluia(thanks be to God)

[abrideofChrist]

MarysLittleFlower, your response sounded as if you thought I were thinking of you when I wrote the post.  Actually, I had in mind certain friends who seem to be unable to make easy normal human decisions without saying that they had to "pray about it" and get back with me/someone else later!  And it's not like these decisions are earth shattering that need a spiritual director's input.  They can be something as simple as what kind of food to order for the party or what color shoes to put on.

 

And for the record, what is particularly irritating about this practice- without reflecting on anyone on this board- is that people are unnecessarily dragging God's will into conversation.  It's like being overly pious.  Let me give an example of what I'm talking about.  When I was a kid, my family took me to Burger King with another family and a priest friend.  The oldest kid in the other family declined an extra serving of fries, saying very loudly, "I am going to offer it up and let the other kids have it."  What was inappropriate was displaying an act of sacrifice for all to behold and praise.  Instead, she could have just said, "no thank you" to more fries and interiorly offered it up to God.  When people drag praying about a decision into conversation, it can be very uncomfortable for the person on the receiving end. 

 

God expects us to use our intelligence and experience to make decisions and St. Thomas tells us that we should not deliberate more on something than is appropriate for the level of decision making.  If I am going to order from a restaurant, I should not sit around forever with my hands folded praying about the menu. I should not tell the server that I will pray about it and please come back in five minutes.  Perhaps you have not encountered such people, MarysLittleFlower, but amazingly, they exist. 

 

It's not that we don't pray about things or keep a spirit of prayer, it's that we don't have prayer analysis paralysis and we don't need to verbalize the fact that we will pray about a decision or about something we are considering.  Catholics should take it for granted that serious Catholics will spend the appropriate amount of time in both prayer and intellectual pondering of the pros and cons of a decision.  A non Catholic does not need to perceive a Catholic as sanctimonious.  In my conversations with many priests and religious, in regards to prayer requests, they will tell me "I will pray about it"; in regards to decisions to be made like what cloth to choose for the vestment, they will tell me "let me think about that and get back to you". 

[MarysLittleFlower]

amesome post Maryslittleflower, alleluia(thanks be to God)

 

I'm glad it was helpful! :) God bless!

MarysLittleFlower, your response sounded as if you thought I were thinking of you when I wrote the post.  Actually, I had in mind certain friends who seem to be unable to make easy normal human decisions without saying that they had to "pray about it" and get back with me/someone else later!  And it's not like these decisions are earth shattering that need a spiritual director's input.  They can be something as simple as what kind of food to order for the party or what color shoes to put on.

 

And for the record, what is particularly irritating about this practice- without reflecting on anyone on this board- is that people are unnecessarily dragging God's will into conversation.  It's like being overly pious.  Let me give an example of what I'm talking about.  When I was a kid, my family took me to Burger King with another family and a priest friend.  The oldest kid in the other family declined an extra serving of fries, saying very loudly, "I am going to offer it up and let the other kids have it."  What was inappropriate was displaying an act of sacrifice for all to behold and praise.  Instead, she could have just said, "no thank you" to more fries and interiorly offered it up to God.  When people drag praying about a decision into conversation, it can be very uncomfortable for the person on the receiving end. 

 

God expects us to use our intelligence and experience to make decisions and St. Thomas tells us that we should not deliberate more on something than is appropriate for the level of decision making.  If I am going to order from a restaurant, I should not sit around forever with my hands folded praying about the menu. I should not tell the server that I will pray about it and please come back in five minutes.  Perhaps you have not encountered such people, MarysLittleFlower, but amazingly, they exist. 

 

It's not that we don't pray about things or keep a spirit of prayer, it's that we don't have prayer analysis paralysis and we don't need to verbalize the fact that we will pray about a decision or about something we are considering.  Catholics should take it for granted that serious Catholics will spend the appropriate amount of time in both prayer and intellectual pondering of the pros and cons of a decision.  A non Catholic does not need to perceive a Catholic as sanctimonious.  In my conversations with many priests and religious, in regards to prayer requests, they will tell me "I will pray about it"; in regards to decisions to be made like what cloth to choose for the vestment, they will tell me "let me think about that and get back to you". 

Thanks for the response! :) I see what you mean about not speaking to others about one's sacrifices, or interior life with God. I was reminded about how Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity often kept her inner life secret from her friends and they had no idea the things that were happening in her soul, they just saw her as cheerful and a good Christian. I also see what you're saying about announcing plans to pray about things like food orders or wardrobe choices: I think that it's good to spend the whole day with God and to make Him part of it, but as you said we don't need to announce this to everyone we know, and we can make Him part of our lives simply by 'being' with Him throughout the day. And yes certain things need to be carefully discerned, but if it's not a question of sin or error - I think it's fine to just make a decision... for example, if I'm at a restaurant and choosing between chicken and fish, it's not a difficult and serious decision, - unless of course one is struggling to make a sacrifice of something they really like, or if it's a fast day and they shouldn't have meat. Or with choosing what to wear, as long as it's modest and appropriate, it's not a matter of extreme discernment if you should wear one sweater or another  ;)  In normal situations like this, we can make God part of our meal by thanking Him for it, asking Him for a blessing, and just keeping Him company interiorly as we can do anywhere. I agree with you how you put it - having a spirit of prayer, but not analyzing things that maybe don't need analysis. Even with sacrifices, a person can choose to make it simply and with love, without extreme analysis that takes half an hour.

Edited July 28, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[BarbTherese]

Well, this is an interesting discussion.  My question about God's will is why is it that people canonize their thoughts and feelings and pious sentiments as "God's will" by saying they will "pray about something" (the implication being that all of a sudden, they know God's will because they prayed about it!).  Isn't it true that without a direct revelation from God we don't really know God's will in particular matters except for avoiding sin? 

 

It is going to take a while to catch up with this thread after my break from Phatmass.  If it is The Lord's Will, please help me to not get too wordy and to stay on subject.  Amen.

 

God's particular will in all things in life is to avoid sin.  That tells us much about the Indicative or Direct Will of God and His Commands.  Outside of sin, we can be very confident that the way we choose to travel in life IS within God's Indicative and Direct Will.  If our aim is holiness, our target point, then we also strive to avoid faults and failings, which God would never Directly Will and Indicate, only Permit - and where faults and failings occur (mine are daily if not moment by moment) we are desperately in need of God's Loving Mercy, which is unfailing and always Faithful to that unfailing Loving Mercy.  One realizes just how desperately one is in need of God's Loving Mercy once one starts to 'glimpse' as it were only something of His Glory and Holiness, His Majesty............and with a sense of great humbling awe.

 

I think it is entirely positive to pray (I've had the experience) and then feel I know exactly in which direction He is indicating that I travel on more important decisions anyway.  It is up to my free will to choose that direction and effect it.  This is where sound spiritual direction is so very important, because we are human and created thus and original sin affects our whole being i.e. sometimes it is our own feelings only convincing us that we do know His Will and after prayer.

Sometimes one feels that one is so convinced that after prayer one does INDEED know, that come all comers and one would not swerve from that path - unless of course one has made a vow to obey one's spiritual director ............ then one is committed to what he or she has to state.  Obedience is not only a powerful virtue in the self, faithful obedience works more good "than this world could ever dream of".

 

My take.

 

Barb :)

[BarbTherese]

I know one of Gods general wills for us all, is that we trust him. I don't know about Job though and Satan being permissive to the will of God, though God does allow bad things to happen and sometimes outright evils, but these are usually bought about by us doing what satan suggests us to do. I think Job is a primitive tale trying to grasp at the idea of evil being allowed while there's a supreme God. I think Satan still has choice as all beings do and we must be careful to not let this JOB sentiment lead to sympathy for the devil. Satan is still very powerful, unsure how many people he can effect at one time, but i know it is many, hence why we need God whom is more powerful. paragraph 324 says he permits the evil not that satan has to ask for permission to tempt man to do evil, and it is not directly from the evil that the good comes, but from remaining faithful to God during the time of evil, which the story of JOB truly presents as well as the story of Joseph and the dream coat. This is all just my opinion, i am no scholar, please illuminate anything i have typed which is contrary to faith.

 

If anyone knows how to use the multiquote feature, please let me know!  I did it once, and have forgotten how.

 

Satan, that evil thing, cannot act without God's Permission - not one little or major thing can it do.  Else is to state that Satan is more powerful than God.  Satan is evil personified, but is a creature of God and cannot act even in evil unless God permits it.  Out of the evil worked or casued by satan (via tempting others) - and it is only with our free will that we can consent.  God can draw good and that is why The Lord permits Satan to act.  Read CCC below.

 

CCC

Providence and the scandal of evil.

309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.

 

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.¹⁷⁴ But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.¹⁷⁵

 

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.¹⁷⁶He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

 

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.¹⁷⁷

312 In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive."¹⁷⁸ From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that "abounded all the more",¹⁷⁹ brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.

 

313 "We know that in everything God works for good for those who love him."¹⁸⁰ The constant witness of the saints confirms this truth:

 

• St. Catherine of Siena said to "those who are scandalized and rebel against what happens to them": "Everything comes from love, all is ordained for the salvation of man, God does nothing without this goal in mind."¹⁸¹
• St. Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: "Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best."¹⁸²

 

• Dame Julian of Norwich: "Here I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep me in the faith. . . and that at the same time I should take my stand on and earnestly believe in what our Lord shewed in this time - that 'all manner [of] thing shall be well.'"¹⁸³

[BarbTherese]

Maybe the idea there is that - the devil doesn't love God, but his power is limited and even evil can't operate beyond God's permissive will? permissive not direct. But we shouldn't blaspheme God's goodness. He is good, and the devil is evil... the reason He permits certain things can ONLY be for a good reason, such as bringing greater good out of it. So the enemy does certain things out of hatred, and God comes and brings a greater good and fixes the situation or the effects of evil, - think of how that must defeat the enemy. :) and we know God would win the war! it's important to pray for souls though, because we have free will and if we cooperate with grace, we can be with God.

 

Good post in my thinking

[BarbTherese]

I kind of agree with you mary's little flower, but i still have great doubts of good coming directly from evil, read the rest of my reasons why...

Also i just wanted to point out another part of JOB. I thought the devil had a bet with God, satan said to God that if God removed his protection from Job, i think the actual words where fence from around JOB, and that he the devil could make JOB curse Gods name. God was so sure of JOBS faithfullness to him that he allowed this.But never fear God promises he will never give us his children/christians more than we can handle. Not all have the capacity to suffer so grievously as Job had, though some may.

 

But never fear God promises he will never give us his children/christians more than we can handle. Not all have the capacity to suffer so grievously as Job had, though some may.

 

 Well said IMO!  If The Lord permits serious sufferings, then the Grace to bear them goes with that Permissive Will of God.

 

We are NEVER tempted nor suffer beyond our means to resist or bear.  The Theology of God's Providential Care of us always.

[BarbTherese]

There's also the idea of God's Mercy and Justice. Both His Mercy and His Justice are Holy. We know that God is good... and He has compassion, and is opposed to sin which is not good but evil, because there is nothing evil in God. He is giving us a time for Mercy.. to choose Him... afterwards, there's the time of Justice. This was told to St Faustina. We would face His Justice if we have refused His Mercy... so it's really up to our choice. God longs to show us His Mercy.

 

I remember something in Divine Mercy in My Soul, God was about to chastise a city for its sins, but as St Faustina prayed the Divine Mercy chaplet, the chastisement was mitigated and God showed the city His Mercy. So it's good to pray for this. Mary said in one of her apparitions - Her Son Jesus allows Himself to be moved :) He is merciful to us, and He wants us to ask. And God is always good. There are things that I don't understand about God's will because I'm only a creature... but I think if we simply trust that He is good, then everything else would make sense, even more difficult questions like why is there suffering? why chastisement? even free will... if people distrust God's goodness, they might not see how free will is such a great gift to us, that was given to us with love. Through trust and love, we can understand more about God, and the parts we don't understand, we can have peace with, because we know He's a good Father and knows what is best for us :)

 

I would need to challenge the above (and I really love St Faustina and much of which she had to state in her Diaries- but we are not bound to believe ALL a saints has to state providing we do not contradict Faith and Morals in the challenging).  Saints are canonized for their heroic virtue and I think that what they write is doctrinally sound according to The Church - but IMO I think she is a little bit off although if The Church states she is not, then she is not insofar as my obedience is concerned.  I am going to state my personal opinion and concepts as entirely fallible nonetheless - at some point in this thread.

 

But I don't think I have time to 'state my case'  just now. 

[Quinn]

I don't really want to explore. So sorry about that. Just want to know what his left me :)