Exploring God's Will

[BarbTherese]

God's Will in Catholic Theology is expressed under two 'headings'.  God's direct and indicative will and His permissive will.  The theology of The Direct or Indicative and the Permissive Will of God is a little known grasped and understood theology in our Catholic culture generally.  My own internalized understanding is under both 'headings' - and is our Catholic theology - and as the one expression of God's Will.  It is not an expression of powerlessness on the part of The Lord re evils great and small that do come about, rather of His permission to exist and out of which He intends to draw good - and it might be a good we will never sight until Heaven.

 

The theology of the Permissive Will of God is drawn from Scripture. If one reads The Book of Job, in the second paragraphhttp://www.drbo.org/chapter/20001.htm satan must seek God's Permission to aggravate Job (putting poor Job's eventual woes excessively mildly!)

 

The Permissive Will of God does not only concern actual evil in our midst or in our own lives, but also those wrong turns, mistakes, errors etc. in life - all of which God Permits - and for His sound good reasons.

 

 Putting this thread into the Debate Forum to open up the subject to debate/discussion.

 

Catholic Catechism:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324

 

Scroll down to:

"Providence and the scandal of evil"

 

 

 

 

Thomas Aquinas : http://givetongue.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/does-god-will-evil.html (Author of the blog: "Deirdre is a young Catholic woman from the Bay Area. Deirdre received a BA from UC Berkeley and a PhL from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas."

 

Catholic Spiritual Direction website: http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2011/06/20/how-can-i-know-the-will-of-god-in-my-life-part-i-of-ii

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Annie12]

I know permissive will pertains to evil, but how can we be sure about more than that? I would think that he makes his plan come about in each life. Why would he allow us to mess up his plan for our life? It doesn't make sense to me.

[BarbTherese]

I know permissive will pertains to evil, but how can we be sure about more than that? I would think that he makes his plan come about in each life. Why would he allow us to mess up his plan for our life? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

Hi Annie :)  - I found it difficult to grasp at first also.  In my post, I quote the Catholic Catechism, St Thomas Aquinas and also an excellent resource site for Catholics Spirituality (the site is regarded as quite sound for Catholic info).  Have you read these?  If you have and things still have not clicked into place, I'll return to this thread at a later point and have a go at explaining myself - God Willing!  Pray to be enlightened since the Permissive Will of God is sound Catholic Theology and is taught by The Church, The Magisterium.

 

God's Plan in our life does always come about without fail for nothing at all can thwart The Will of God.  Sometimes, it can be said, The Lord is indeed writing very straight, but in quite crooked lines to us.  Our understanding is finite - His Knowledge is Infinite.

 

God bless - Barb :)

[Annie12]

 

 

God's Plan in our life does always come about without fail for nothing at all can thwart The Will of God.

 

This.

 

So, trying to understand the mechanics of God's will seems a bit pointless because we are never going to be able to fully comprehend God's will. Isn't this all we need to realize?

[BarbTherese]

Hi again Annie :) ...........In a nutshell, yes.  Trying to work out they whys and wherefores of God's will (why this happened, and not that etc.) is merely the finite trying to understand the infinite and one needs trust always in Divine Providence.

 

  In response to your original post: "I know permissive will pertains to evil, but how can we be sure about more than that? I would think that he makes his plan come about in each life. Why would he allow us to mess up his plan for our life? It doesn't make sense to me."

 

 

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p4.htm#324

Scroll down to "V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE"  which explains the Catholic theology of "The Permissive Will of God"..............while the whole page is well worth the read.

 

Many do not understand nor grasp the theology and Church Teaching of The Permissive Will of God (Divine Providence) and it is a subject about which one can be very often asked or more likely at times, challenged, especially by those outside Catholicism. 

 

God bless.........Barb :)

 

 

[BarbTherese]

We can "mess up God's Plan for our life" through mortal sin which separates us from The Lord and His Church through our own free choice and free will; however, God permits this to happen since we do have free will and even though we have condemned ourselves, mysteriously to human finite understanding and reason, God has permitted this because He knows how to bring some good from it.

 

This is born out by the Catholic Catechism:

 

 

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.¹⁷⁶ He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

 

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.¹⁷⁷

177 St. Augustine, Enchiridion 3,11: PL 40,236.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I know permissive will pertains to evil, but how can we be sure about more than that? I would think that he makes his plan come about in each life. Why would he allow us to mess up his plan for our life? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

We really and truly do have free will.  God's Plan for each and every life is salvation and holiness, but we have free will and need to choose it and effect it by co-operating with His Grace which is freely available in every life and journey.

God knows what we will choose, whether we will be saved and journey to holiness, or whether we will not.  This does not mean that God pre-ordains it, because this would be to state we do not have free will.  Rather, God fore-knows what our choices will be and why.

 

I think I am on track!

[BarbTherese]

This serious of questions and answers may clarify things for any interested (series of questions answered by a Catholic priest)

 

"How Free is Free Will with God's Foreknowledge?"

http://catholicvu.com/newpage15.htm

 

 

(Author: Fr Amaro began his religious education at Holy Apostles College and Seminary, later attending St. John’s Seminary in Camarillo, California for his graduate work.  A late vocation priest, he brings to the priesthood his love of life and a wealth of creativity (visit his website at Fr Amaro’s Home Page).  In July of 1992, Father Amaro was ordained to the priesthood and is the pastor of St. Francis Xavier Cabrini Church in Crestline, California.)

 

 

 

 

 

[AccountDeleted]

We really and truly do have free will.  God's Plan for each and every life is salvation and holiness, but we have free will and need to choose it and effect it by co-operating with His Grace which is freely available in every life and journey.

God knows what we will choose, whether we will be saved and journey to holiness, or whether we will not.  This does not mean that God pre-ordains it, because this would be to state we do not have free will.  Rather, God fore-knows what our choices will be and why.

 

I think I am on track!

 

 

Barb - I think you are on track with this as well. :)  God´s will is for a bigger picture than we can see. The details are left to us, but as you state, His will is that we be saved. How we live this out in our everyday lives has a lot of possibilities. We often ask about the details, but free will means we have to take care of them while keeping in mind the bigger picture of His will for us. Well put, Barb.

[BarbTherese]

Barb - I think you are on track with this as well. :)  God´s will is for a bigger picture than we can see. The details are left to us, but as you state, His will is that we be saved. How we live this out in our everyday lives has a lot of possibilities. We often ask about the details, but free will means we have to take care of them while keeping in mind the bigger picture of His will for us. Well put, Barb.

 

Thanks for the affirmation, nunsense.  I am still dragging my feet, saddened, to hear things did not go too well for you in Wolverhampton - it seems.

I know what it is to be crushed and to see nothing ahead, so I am trying very hard to stay with that because when it does happen one truly cannot see anything ahead and to those who try to console and encourage one, only seems to add to one's burden.

I have to add, even having said that, that there is something ahead, it is a question of just staying in that darkness until there is some light.  Incidentally, I really feel for you in your pilgrimage too.......and your sore feet in a special way - my feet gave me real curry not long ago.  Goodness, it must be your will power alone in Grace that is keeping you going.  I am following that thread.

 

As to your post above - I am not too sure at all what I "well put"!!!  Not to worry, I think you said it all and then some above. St Therese, as you know, is my patron and I a great fan of hers -  she has shown us how in responding to the little details (and the big ones!) The Lord puts in our way in our particular lifestyle will spell out holiness for us, or the lack of it.  Our vocation in life or that lifestyle we choose to travel the path of holiness, is our free choice.  The Lord invites, but does not command - His Invitation, whatever it may be, is simply the guarantee that this path, lived well, will lead to holiness.  This has a great beauty in all this for The Lord is author of all the vocations and lifestyles there are in existence - and we have a 'smorgasbord' to choose from and make a lifestyle our own and our personal story of holiness.  The details or circumstances within that choice, The Lord gifts to us.  Whatever we chose, whatever at all, in Grace The Lord is there with His Many Gifts of many circumstances to lead us to salvation and holiness of life.

 

I will heave a big sigh of relief, nunsense, when your pilgrimage concludes.  I cannot even imagine (let alone ever rustle up) the courage and trust it must surely take to undertake such a venture after Wolverhampton.  It is a sweat for me just to read the thread.  And, as always, your Faith continues to shine and light a way for us all.  Keep on keeping on, gal!

[abrideofChrist]

Well, this is an interesting discussion.  My question about God's will is why is it that people canonize their thoughts and feelings and pious sentiments as "God's will" by saying they will "pray about something" (the implication being that all of a sudden, they know God's will because they prayed about it!).  Isn't it true that without a direct revelation from God we don't really know God's will in particular matters except for avoiding sin? 

 

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I know one of Gods general wills for us all, is that we trust him. I don't know about Job though and Satan being permissive to the will of God, though God does allow bad things to happen and sometimes outright evils, but these are usually bought about by us doing what satan suggests us to do. I think Job is a primitive tale trying to grasp at the idea of evil being allowed while there's a supreme God. I think Satan still has choice as all beings do and we must be careful to not let this JOB sentiment lead to sympathy for the devil. Satan is still very powerful, unsure how many people he can effect at one time, but i know it is many, hence why we need God whom is more powerful. paragraph 324 says he permits the evil not that satan has to ask for permission to tempt man to do evil, and it is not directly from the evil that the good comes, but from remaining faithful to God during the time of evil, which the story of JOB truly presents as well as the story of Joseph and the dream coat. This is all just my opinion, i am no scholar, please illuminate anything i have typed which is contrary to faith.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Please disregard my original post,this is the edited version,for some reason i couldn't edit.

 

 

I know one of Gods general wills for us all, is that we trust him. I don't know about Job though and Satan being permissive to the will of God, though God does allow bad things to happen and sometimes outright evils, but these are usually bought about by us doing what satan suggests us to do. I think Job is a primitive tale trying to grasp at the idea of evil being allowed while there's a supreme God. I think Satan still has choice as all beings do and we must be careful to not let this JOB sentiment lead to sympathy for the devil. Satan is still very powerful, unsure how many people he can effect at one time, but i know it is many, hence why we need God whom is more powerful. paragraph 324 says he permits the evil, not that satan has to ask for permission to tempt man to do evil, and it is not directly from the evil that the good comes, but from remaining faithful to God during the time of evil, which the story of JOB truly presents as well as the story of Joseph and the dream coat.The good comes from faith,remaining hopeful and not despairing in times of great trial and also charity, the story of JOB also shows JOBS great charity towards the wise men whom seem to be preaching to the choir and to some degree almost mocking his wisdom with empty words in his great time of need for Gods help. I feel like that sometimes when i know the truth but no one including myself can  pull me out of the sorrow of ashes and sack cloth.This is all just my opinion, i am no scholar, please illuminate anything i have typed which is contrary to faith.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

o say there may very well have been a man called JOB that had a similar experience. And i don't doubt God can cast down a pillar of fire from heaven or a cloud (exodus.) But the whole devil working for God i don't believe.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Interesting topic!

 

I think we need to always start with the trust that God is good.

 

We also know that evil happens in the world.

 

Many people struggle with putting the two ideas together... but I like the Catholic teaching of God's direct will and permissive will. I think He respects our free will as well. If we do something that He didn't want us to do, He can still draw good from that... for example,

 

the fall of Adam lead to God becoming Man and redeeming us

our  mistakes can be used by God to humble us

even our repented mortal sins can be used by God to humble us, as we remember them... so the sins were bad, but the repentance is good, and the humbling part is good :)

suffering can be sanctified, because of the Cross, even though in itself, it's came after the fall: for example, illness

 

We can see that God is very good, from this :) that even things that are not good, He would use to bring good to us - this is also a way of Him triumphing over evil and the enemy.