Can Anyone Help Me Understand This?

[Tammy]

Hello,

I am very much a lurker on this site, rarely a poster.  However, I've recently come across a reading in the Catechism that I don't quite understand.  Here it is:

 

"The Church’s relationship with Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, quoting Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964)."

 

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what this says.  I've been Catholic for four years now, and I love being a part of the faith.  However, does the Catholic Church teach that the Muslims worship the same God we do, the One, True God? 

 

Let me also say, I do not wish to offend anyone at all, and I don't even know if this is the right place for this question.  I am just very confused by this part of the Catechism. 

 

If anyone has deeper understanding of this and could help me understand, I would greatly appreciate it.  May God reward you!

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what this says.  I've been Catholic for four years now, and I love being a part of the faith.  However, does the Catholic Church teach that the Muslims worship the same God we do, the One, True God? 

 

In my opinion--which is fallible and open to correction--I think since there is only One God, their worship goes to Him. The Catechism seems to support that idea. So while they worship the same God we worship, they worship Him incorrectly. They don't have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (or any of the other distinctly Catholic prayers), and thus they cannot worship as they ought. But they worship as they truly THINK is proper, and if they are indeed truly ignorant of the error of their ways, I believe God's mercy will cover them and spare them despite their grave errors.

 

That's just my understanding. Everyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Basilisa Marie]

Well, Islam's a touchy subject around here (as you know).  Some Muslims agree that we all worship the same God.  Others don't.  I think most Catholic bishops and such believe that we worship the same God, hence the language in the catechism.  We don't recognize that they hold the faith of Abraham, but we recognize that they think they do.  I think the paragraph means that we consider them "first" among those who believe in God but aren't Christian or Jewish.  "First" of the theists who aren't Christian or Jewish.  And we trust that God has some purpose for them, and we hope that God will show them mercy.  

 

So basically, I agree with TJMH.  :)  And like she said, it's just my opinion.  

[CatholicsAreKewl]

It depends on what you mean by "Muslim". I doubt the Catholic Church would acknowledge the Wu Tang Clan's conception of God. 

Edited June 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[jim111]

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:
“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”

[Laudate_Dominum]

That's Apotheoun's favorite part of Lumen Gentium.

[Basilisa Marie]

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:
“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”

 

Happily, our wording has evolved in the last thousand years. 

[Quid Est Veritas?]

I understand what that quote is saying, though. In those times it would have been a little confusing for the mosques to have been on par with Christian churches. If Christians believed that theirs was the one, true, faith, then why should they expose themselves to the errors preached by the Saracen immams? Also, conquerers of different religions than their subjects needed to solidify their power by expressly promoting their own faith. To do otherwise would have been a sign of weakness.
Now, of course, things are different, at least, here in the West.

[Ice_nine]

What do you mean by "worship." If the liturgy and holy communion is the pinnacle of worship then of course Muslims do not worship the same God, because they don't even attempt to do these things. If by worship you mean "pray to," then I would wager God hears the prayers of Muslims. I don't know.

 

Why does it trouble you in particular if you don't mind me asking?

[jim111]

Hello,
I am very much a lurker on this site, rarely a poster. However, I've recently come across a reading in the Catechism that I don't quite understand. Here it is:

"The Church’s relationship with Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, quoting Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964)."

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:
“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what this says. I've been Catholic for four years now, and I love being a part of the faith. However, does the Catholic Church teach that the Muslims worship the same God we do, the One, True God?

Let me also say, I do not wish to offend anyone at all, and I don't even know if this is the right place for this question. I am just very confused by this part of the Catechism.

If anyone has deeper understanding of this and could help me understand, I would greatly appreciate it. May God reward you!

Would your question be better asked "how does salvation work for the Muslims?"

[GMMF]

Regarding the quote from the Council of Vienne, it says they adore Muhammed, which if true, would mean they are not adoring the one God.  On the other hand, I've never met or heard of a Muslim that actually did this so it seems the Council was mistaken on that fact.

 

Anyway, Lumen Gentium and the CCC seem, as usual, to present the traditional Catholic understanding of this issue.  I have not seen any sources saying they worship a false god (unless they are mistakenly accused of adoring Muhammed or the meteorite), but I have seen old sources say they acknowledge the one God who can be known from reason and/or saying they are not idolators (idolators worship something other than God). Here's the philosophical reasons on why this is correct:

First, there should be noted a difference between worshipping God in Spirit and in truth, being in the grace of the Father or having Him, etc., and worshipping God according to the  virtue of religion (which is not a theological virtue, but falls under justice).

A good definition of the virtue of religion is as follows:

"The Virtue of Religion is that virtue which inclines the human person to offer to God the worship due Him as the First Principle (or source) and Supreme Governor of all things.”

 

Can Muslims do this? They certainly worship "God" as First Principle and Supreme Governor of all things, but is it the same God we know? Can one acknowledge the one God without acknowledging the Trinity?

First, it needs to be pointed out that faith is required to acknowledge the Trinity.  The Trinity cannot be reasoned out, as St. Vincent Ferrer explains (Sermon for First Sunday in Advent, "A Christology from the Sermons of St. Vincent Ferrer of the Order of Preachers"):

 

 

“Concerning the use of the intelligence with regard to the Trinity, St. Thomas asks whether the Trinity of the Divine Persons can be known by natural reasoning. He answers: "It is impossible to attain to the knowledge of the Trinity by natural reason." For man can obtain the knowledge of God by natural reason only from creatures. Now creatures lead us to God as effects do to their cause. Accordingly, by natural reason we can know of God that only which of necessity belongs to him as the principle of all things. Now, the creative power of God is common to the whole Trinity; and hence it belongs to the unity of the essence, and not to the distinction of the Persons. Therefore by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the Persons. Whoever, then, tries to prove the Trinity of Persons by natural reason, derogates from faith. “

 

Therefore, we can know of God, as the Principle of all things, from reason alone, apart from faith, but we can only know of the Trinity with faith since it is a revealed dogma.  The First Vatican Council also defined that God can be known from natural reason alone and St. Paul says, on account of this, those who do not acknowledge God (but worship idols, are atheists, etc.) are without excuse (Rom. 1:20). 

Therefore, one can acknowledge the one God and Creator of all things without having faith and acknowledging the Trinity. But do Muslims do this?

How can we say whether or not we are talking about the same thing? It is the essence of the thing that determines what it is.  If we acknowledge the same essence, we acknowledge the same thing. What we can say about the essence of God is that it is the same as His existence, this summed up as "God is" or, in His own words, "I AM" or "I AM who AM."  (Exo. 3:14)

This concept is formally referred to as the "aesity" of God. Essentially, aesity means self-existence. Aesity explains the metaphysical nature of God as a purely self-existent being that exists in complete actuality. God is not a being that is created by another god; neither does God create Himself into existence. Rather, God has always existed as an unchanging, completely actualized being. God has his Being of himself and to himself such that he is absolute being and the very definition of existence (Acts 17:22-28). Since God’s existence is the same as his essence it follows that God is existence. (NB: this not to assert pantheism. All other beings participate in his existence on a contingency and thus do not possess the essence of God. Therefore, no other being can be said to be a god or share a part in godhead since they exist solely on a contingency.) This concept is at the root of the definition of all of God’s other perfections because if God is absolute being he must logically contain in Himself all perfections of being.

Since God's essence is existence, if one conceives of His essence, one can only conceive of He who exists--it is impossible to conceive of a completely actualized being that is not the true God. Similarly, there cannot exist two of such beings, because then neither would contain in Himself all perfections of being. The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Essence and Existence gives the Thomist position on this:
 

-If essence and existence were but one thing, we should be unable to conceive the one without conceiving the other. But we are as a fact able to conceive of essence by itself.
-If there be no real distinction between the two, then the essence is identical with the existence. But in God alone are these identical.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm

 

In other words, when essence and existence are but one thing, we cannot conceive of one without conceiving of the other.  And this is the case only with God. Therefore, to conceive a being with aesity is to conceive of the one God who exists --it's impossible to conceive of something where essence and existence are identical, but that is not God.

Since Muslims do conceive of God as being completely self-actualized, of being non-contingent, as having aesity, as far as I can tell (see here for example http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/need.htm ), then they therefore can only be said to acknowledge the one God who exists and it is to Him that they honor as First Principle and Creator according to the virtue of religion.

I would say therefore that we know God; they know of God.  We worship Him in Spirit and in Truth and serve Him in supernatural faith, they worship only in a natural way--but they do adore Him, despite their other errors.

 

Of course, adoring God in and of itself is not sufficient for salvation.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2013 by GMMF

[jim111]

Happily, our wording has evolved in the last thousand years. 

 

But the truth can't evolve. The statements in the council of Vienna were just as much true then, as they are now. Clearely by the necessity of this thread, our evolved/ modern thought that you cant offend anyone has caused many to think Islam is a good, instead of an evil.

[Tammy]

Wow, thank you for all of your insight!  I am so sleepy now while looking at this, and I want to be able to respond intelligently.  So, keep discussing if anyone has anything more to add.  I have several thoughts, and look forward to continuing this discussion when I am more awake and thinking clearly.  God bless you!!! 

[filius_angelorum]

Situations change, JIM111. We aren't necessarily in a war to the death between Christian nations and Muslim ones, and those of us who are Catholic are equally alienated whether at home or abroad. We do well to be understanding of the Muslims.

 

One thing that is always worth pointing out...If someone is unbaptized God CAN save them by infusing their soul with sanctifying grace, which is the necessary condition for heaven. God is not obliged to do so, even if they are following their consciences. And their consciences may ask them to act against their religion at times, which puts them in a difficult situation for attaining heaven and salvation. 

 

But yes, basically, the Catechism is saying that we worship the same God. They have a special place in the economy of salvation as the spiritual heirs of Ishmael, and they have served, in many places, to rid the peoples of idolatry and polytheism, at the root of so many evils. Whether they WILL be saved or not, if, moved by grace, they act according to their consciences, I will leave in the very capable hands of God. 

[jim111]

Situations change, JIM111. We aren't necessarily in a war to the death between Christian nations and Muslim ones, and those of us who are Catholic are equally alienated whether at home or abroad. We do well to be understanding of the Muslims.

The quote form the council of Vienna was dicussing the Religon, this truth is not dependant on weather or not we were at war with them.

One thing that is always worth pointing out...If someone is unbaptized God CAN save them by infusing their soul with sanctifying grace, which is the necessary condition for heaven. God is not obliged to do so, even if they are following their consciences. And their consciences may ask them to act against their religion at times, which puts them in a difficult situation for attaining heaven and salvation.

Yes it's more complicate then that but true, however even though they worship an all powerful creator, it is inspire of Islam that they are saved, not because of it.

But yes, basically, the Catechism is saying that we worship the same God. They have a special place in the economy of salvation as the spiritual heirs of Ishmael, and they have served, in many places, to rid the peoples of idolatry and polytheism, at the root of so many evils. Whether they WILL be saved or not, if, moved by grace, they act according to their consciences, I will leave in the very capable hands of God.

I'm not sure what the economy of salvation is, but Islam is an evil not a good.