Why God Doesn't Prevent Terrible Things, Atheist Poll

[dairygirl4u2c]

This explains why you don't understand theists, then.

 

The problem isn't with God.  God wants to help whenever and wherever He can.  The problem is with us - we reject His help.  This is evidenced by the existence of atheists.

 

if God wanted to intervene he could. this is not really debateable. so by definition, he doesn't want to intervene. 

 

even if God brings good out of bad, or suffering etc has a purpose, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not he can intervene. 

 

the tone of the poll, and even that option, are not optimal, when wanting God's plan conveyed to people, the reasons for God's lack of intervention..

forr example, "he doesnt want to" make it seem like he doesn't care. the tone for sure is problematic....

but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact the poll option is literally true. he could intervene, but doesn't want to. 

[stevil]

The problem with atheists is...

 

 

The problem is with us - we reject His help.  This is evidenced by the existence of atheists.

Ohh, I can see some distain for atheists here.

I wonder how well it would go down if Dawkin's started off a speach with "The problem with Catholics is..."

Atheists, don't reject any god's help, atheists don't see any gods offering help.

If I were trapped in a burning building and an entity in a fireman suit came to rescue me, do you think I would say yes please, or do you think I would first ask this entity if it were a god, and if it said "yes" do you then think I would reject its help?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Ohh, I can see some distain for atheists here.

I wonder how well it would go down if Dawkin's started off a speach with "The problem with Catholics is..."

Atheists, don't reject any god's help, atheists don't see any gods offering help.

If I were trapped in a burning building and an entity in a fireman suit came to rescue me, do you think I would say yes please, or do you think I would first ask this entity if it were a god, and if it said "yes" do you then think I would reject its help?

 

I think people are often confused by why Atheists don't accept God. What seems logical to a Christian is somewhat alien to an Atheist.

 

Consider: every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you have for being a Christian. And yet you do not find their reasons compelling....Why don't you lose any sleep over whether to convert to Islam? Can you prove that Allah is not the one, true God? Can you prove that the archangel Gabriel did not visit Muhammad in his cave? Of course not. But you need not prove any of these things to reject the beliefs of Muslims as absurd. The burden is upon them to prove that their beliefs about God and Muhammad are valid. They have not done this. They cannot do this....The truth is, you know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to the beliefs of Muslims. Isn't it obvious Muslims are fooling themselves? Isn't it obvious that anyone who thinks that the Koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe has not read the book critically?...Understand that the way you view Islam is precisely the way devout Muslims view Christianity. And it is the way I view all religions." 

 

Sam Harris Letter To a Christian Nation.

Edited June 21, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[fides' Jack]

What I meant by my post was that I felt people tended to limit God to their own bubble, as if the everyday events of their lives mattered more than others.

 

Interesting. A theology teacher of mine in high school had a view similar to the one I posted. I wonder if there is an official Catholic position on this.

 

 I've always felt bad for atheists/agnostic who become religious in response to a tragic event in their lives. I don't know if people adopting religion as a coping mechanism is necessarily a good thing in such cases. Not saying it's bad, I just don't see how that would be the preferred route for conversion. 

 

Agreed, that's probably not the best way to start a strong faith.  But I'm sure God would make the most use of that faith.

 

if God wanted to intervene he could. this is not really debateable. so by definition, he doesn't want to intervene. 

 

even if God brings good out of bad, or suffering etc has a purpose, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not he can intervene. 

 

the tone of the poll, and even that option, are not optimal, when wanting God's plan conveyed to people, the reasons for God's lack of intervention..

forr example, "he doesnt want to" make it seem like he doesn't care. the tone for sure is problematic....

but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact the poll option is literally true. he could intervene, but doesn't want to. 

 

So you're bringing up the idea that since He could, He would if He really wanted to.  There are many more terms at play here than just "could" and "want to".  There are also ideas like "should" and "would".  Try incorporating those into your argument, and see if you come out with the same conclusion.

 

Yes, I understood the difference between the tone of the statement and the statement itself.  Don't try to use that as your entire basis for thinking that every theist would naturally believe bad conclusions.

 

Ohh, I can see some distain for atheists here.

I wonder how well it would go down if Dawkin's started off a speach with "The problem with Catholics is..."

Atheists, don't reject any god's help, atheists don't see any gods offering help.

If I were trapped in a burning building and an entity in a fireman suit came to rescue me, do you think I would say yes please, or do you think I would first ask this entity if it were a god, and if it said "yes" do you then think I would reject its help?

 

Absolutely there is disdain for atheists.  Especially the likes of militant atheists like "Dawkins", who actually does start a lot of his sentences with equally pithy remarks.

 

Just because atheists don't see God offering help doesn't mean it's not there, or that they're not rejecting it.  Atheists just want God to respond and communicate to them in a different way. 

 

I think people are often confused by why Atheists don't accept God. What seems logical to a Christian is somewhat alien to an Atheist.

 

Consider: every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you have for being a Christian. And yet you do not find their reasons compelling....Why don't you lose any sleep over whether to convert to Islam? Can you prove that Allah is not the one, true God? Can you prove that the archangel Gabriel did not visit Muhammad in his cave? Of course not. But you need not prove any of these things to reject the beliefs of Muslims as absurd. The burden is upon them to prove that their beliefs about God and Muhammad are valid. They have not done this. They cannot do this....The truth is, you know exactly what it is like to be an atheist with respect to the beliefs of Muslims. Isn't it obvious Muslims are fooling themselves? Isn't it obvious that anyone who thinks that the Koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe has not read the book critically?...Understand that the way you view Islam is precisely the way devout Muslims view Christianity. And it is the way I view all religions." 

 

Sam Harris Letter To a Christian Nation.

 

Sam Harris has done much to undermine true Christianity.

 

True Christians recognize and respect Muslims for their steadfast faith.  Passages like this serve as red herrings.  At least Muslims serve God as they believe in Him.  Or, if you don't believe that they serve the same God, you can at least recognize that they are hot or cold, and not lukewarm.  Atheists who base their lack of belief in a perceived equality of religions are exactly that: lukewarm.

[stevil]

 Atheists just want God to respond and communicate to them in a different way. 

 

That's not true. I'm an atheist and I don't want anything from any gods. In fact I don't have a belief that there are gods, so how can I want something from them. That would be as silly as saying that I want an easter egg from the easter bunny.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

True Christians recognize and respect Muslims for their steadfast faith.  Passages like this serve as red herrings.  At least Muslims serve God as they believe in Him. 

 

I can see how one can read it as such. I still think his argument is a valid one. Given that both Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, they still have different ideas of who this God is/how to worship him. The same way a Catholic considers some Islamic beliefs odd and a Muslim considers Catholic beliefs odd, an Atheist considers both odd.

 

Or, if you don't believe that they serve the same God, you can at least recognize that they are hot or cold, and not lukewarm.

They're hot and they're cold. They're yes and they're no. In and they're out, up and they're down....

Atheists who base their lack of belief in a perceived equality of religions are exactly that: lukewarm.

That's an interesting point. I don't know if we can say that all Atheists would fit into Jesus' notion of lukewarm.

[Anastasia13]

Given that both Catholics and Muslims worship the same God,

 

That is debateable.
 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

That is debateable.
 

 

I understand people from both sides disagree with this notion. I was answering his comment about Sam Harris' comment being a red herring. I thought it had to do with the fact that Harris immediately assumed that all Christians believe Allah is a different god.

Edited June 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Guest]

I like Sam Harris..Watched a debate he was in...Read some of his stuff...He has a lot of good points and brings up interesting things...Makes me think about things in a different way...And he's open to there being more then just this life and the here and now...He just doesn't believe in any organised religion....At the end of the day I don't agree with him but do I enjoy listening to what he has to say...

Edited June 22, 2013 by Guest

[Guest]

Dp

Edited June 22, 2013 by Guest

[fides' Jack]

I can see how one can read it as such. I still think his argument is a valid one. Given that both Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, they still have different ideas of who this God is/how to worship him. The same way a Catholic considers some Islamic beliefs odd and a Muslim considers Catholic beliefs odd, an Atheist considers both odd.

 

 

 

They're hot and they're cold. They're yes and they're no. In and they're out, up and they're down....

 

 

That's an interesting point. I don't know if we can say that all Atheists would fit into Jesus' notion of lukewarm.

 

That's a bit of a change of subject, though.  And it's trying to trivialize a distinction that should be made.  The way a Catholic sees Muslims is not the same as the way an atheist sees Muslims.  

 

An atheist, by virtue of being an atheist, would necessarily have to draw the line of belief before any religious beliefs enter the picture.  He would say, "Well, God doesn't exist, so it doesn't matter what ideas either religion holds".  If you maintain that God does indeed exist, then the distinction is made at the particular ideas being taught.  

 

The notion that you can explain away atheist feelings by comparing them to how religions view each other just seems problematic, then.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "they're hot and they're cold...".

 

I'm sure each atheist has his/her own reasons for being an atheist.  I would imagine (though I don't know), that most atheists are not, in fact, atheists, but simply feel hurt by God.  Take that how you will. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

That's a bit of a change of subject, though.  And it's trying to trivialize a distinction that should be made.  The way a Catholic sees Muslims is not the same as the way an atheist sees Muslims.  

 

An atheist, by virtue of being an atheist, would necessarily have to draw the line of belief before any religious beliefs enter the picture.  He would say, "Well, God doesn't exist, so it doesn't matter what ideas either religion holds".  If you maintain that God does indeed exist, then the distinction is made at the particular ideas being taught.  

 

The notion that you can explain away atheist feelings by comparing them to how religions view each other just seems problematic, then.

 

Good points! Of course, for you this would be a very different situation because you actually believe that Muslims worship the same God. There are some Catholics who disagree with this point. Perhaps a more fitting example would be a Hindu. The spirit of the example relies on the fact that both groups of people have different perceptions of reality. 

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "they're hot and they're cold...". 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY3CehyfUko

 

 

I'm sure each atheist has his/her own reasons for being an atheist.  I would imagine (though I don't know), that most atheists are not, in fact, atheists, but simply feel hurt by God.  Take that how you will. 

 

That might be the true for some but I think it's unfair to say it's the case for most Atheists. It's just as unfair to say that Christians believe in God due to indoctrination and fear of death. 

Edited June 24, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[dairygirl4u2c]

dairygirl4u2c, on 21 Jun 2013 - 5:57 PM, said:

if God wanted to intervene he could. this is not really debateable. so by definition, he doesn't want to intervene. 

 

even if God brings good out of bad, or suffering etc has a purpose, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not he can intervene. 

 

the tone of the poll, and even that option, are not optimal, when wanting God's plan conveyed to people, the reasons for God's lack of intervention..

forr example, "he doesnt want to" make it seem like he doesn't care. the tone for sure is problematic....

but that doesn't have anything to do with the fact the poll option is literally true. he could intervene, but doesn't want to. 

 

"So you're bringing up the idea that since He could, He would if He really wanted to.  There are many more terms at play here than just "could" and "want to".  There are also ideas like "should" and "would".  Try incorporating those into your argument, and see if you come out with the same conclusion.

 

Yes, I understood the difference between the tone of the statement and the statement itself.  Don't try to use that as your entire basis for thinking that every theist would naturally believe bad conclusions."

pretty sure this is more about your writing problem than my comprehension problem, but if you could at least clarify, i could properly respond. 
as of now, i dont see how you are getting around the literal fact that God doesn't want to intervene, since he could if he really wanted to.