Theological Question.

[Annie12]

Here is a quote fro the book Imitations of Christ by Thomas Kepis,

BK.3 The Twenty-Eighth Chapter
Strength Against Slander

The Voice of Christ

MY CHILD, do not take it to heart if some people think badly of you and say unpleasant things about you. You ought to think worse things of yourself and to believe that no one is weaker than yourself. Moreover, if you walk in the spirit you will pay little heed to fleeting words. It is no small prudence to remain silent in evil times, to turn inwardly to Me, and not to be disturbed by human opinions. Do not let your peace depend on the words of men. Their thinking well or badly of you does not make you different from what you are. Where are true peace and glory? Are they not in Me? He who neither cares to please men nor fears to displease them will enjoy great peace, for all unrest and distraction of the senses arise out of disorderly love and vain fear.

 

 

Now, I know that we are suppose to acknowledge that we are very weak and without Christ we wouldn't be able to do anything. However, does this mean low self esteem is a good thing? Are we supposed to be mean to ourselves? I don't understand this.

[Apotheoun]

Here is a quote fro the book Imitations of Christ by Thomas Kepis,

 

Now, I know that we are suppose to acknowledge that we are very weak and without Christ we wouldn't be able to do anything. However, does this mean low self esteem is a good thing? Are we supposed to be mean to ourselves? I don't understand this.

I don't think Thomas à Kempis is saying that you must experience self-loathing, but rather just a proper sense of self, i.e., of your own weaknesses and your dependence upon God. Moreover, what others think of you good, bad, or indifferent has no real meaning, and is not something that should worry you. Finally, the words of Christ about love of neighbor come to mind, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" [Matt. 22:39], which clearly means that you should not hate yourself, for if you hate yourself you cannot properly love your neighbor.

 

I think Thomas à Kempis is simply telling his reader that he should have a proper sense of his own weakness, and not worry about what others think of him.

[Annie12]

okay, this makes sense. Thank you!

[Nihil Obstat]

Thomas a Kempis is very big on the whole thinking nothing of yourself thing. I think it is best to understand it as something to work towards, slowly, like over a lifetime.
I think for him the pinnacle of that concept would be in understanding that nothing good in yourself is your own, but rather comes from God. But when you reach that point, you will be a saint. :D

But yeah, he really does push that idea, and it is quite difficult.

[Lilllabettt]

Thomas a Kempis is very big on the whole thinking nothing of yourself thing.

 

 I took Imitation of Christ off my reading list for that very reason.  It's a shame, because it's such a classic; I initially felt I had to read it since it has been foundational to the spiritual lives of so many Saints ... but honestly different people benefit from different approaches. People with self esteem issues might not benefit from reading Thomas a Kempis, in which case it's okay to put it away.

 

 

I think part of it might be the "style" in fashion when The Imitation was written.  "I'm lower than the worms..." ... that's just how people talked.

[Nihil Obstat]

I took Imitation of Christ off my reading list for that very reason. It's a shame, because it's such a classic; I initially felt I had to read it since it has been foundational to the spiritual lives of so many Saints ... but honestly different people benefit from different approaches. People with self esteem issues might not benefit from reading Thomas a Kempis, in which case it's okay to put it away.


I think part of it might be the "style" in fashion when The Imitation was written. "I'm lower than the worms..." ... that's just how people talked.

I am having a bit of trouble with it, but trying to keep it all in perspective.

[HisChildForever]

I am having a bit of trouble with it, but trying to keep it all in perspective.

 

I read it twice, which was helpful. Likewise I read True Devotion to Mary two or three times. It's good to comb through a second time, I understood better and tried to be more open to the use of language and description.

[Basilisa Marie]

I've noticed that a lot of people are naturally confident and struggle with pride, so meditating on being the lowest of the low is helpful.  But I think a lot of women have the opposite problem. I heard one priest say that for a lot of people, Sloth is a bigger "deadly sin" than Pride.  

[cappie]

Throughout the Imitation and especially in Book III, Thomas discusses the ideal of surrendering completely to God's will. This is one of the great and difficult questions of Christian life, not because it is controversial, but because there is difficulty over what it means. To what degree are we to plan and act? Are we to wait for God in everything? If so, what does that mean? What is the nature of God's will, and how precisely does he want to direct our lives? These are some of the questions, and Thomas has one set of answers. There is always a difference between pride and self esteem.

[Gabriela]

I asked this question (more or less) in the TL phorum a while back. When I pray the Litany of Humility, I feel like I'm lying to God. "I don't really want these things..." If I did obtain them, I would be unemployable in academia, which is the only place I am employable.

 

Can anyone help with that? I really do want to be more humble. But desiring absolutely nothing for myself and that everyone be promoted and hired above me... that seems like a recipe for career suicide. And homelessness. And hunger.

 

:idontknow:

[WillT]

I asked this question (more or less) in the TL phorum a while back. When I pray the Litany of Humility, I feel like I'm lying to God. "I don't really want these things..." If I did obtain them, I would be unemployable in academia, which is the only place I am employable.

Can anyone help with that? I really do want to be more humble. But desiring absolutely nothing for myself and that everyone be promoted and hired above me... that seems like a recipe for career suicide. And homelessness. And hunger.

:idontknow:

Sometimes God answers prayers with a "no", if it's in your best interests. Desiring something and obtaining it are different things entirely. :)

[Nihil Obstat]

I asked this question (more or less) in the TL phorum a while back. When I pray the Litany of Humility, I feel like I'm lying to God. "I don't really want these things..." If I did obtain them, I would be unemployable in academia, which is the only place I am employable.

 

Can anyone help with that? I really do want to be more humble. But desiring absolutely nothing for myself and that everyone be promoted and hired above me... that seems like a recipe for career suicide. And homelessness. And hunger.

 

:idontknow:

Fake it 'til you make it. :smile3: Pray that your desires come to match God's plan for you.

[Lil Red]

I asked this question (more or less) in the TL phorum a while back. When I pray the Litany of Humility, I feel like I'm lying to God. "I don't really want these things..." If I did obtain them, I would be unemployable in academia, which is the only place I am employable.

 

Can anyone help with that? I really do want to be more humble. But desiring absolutely nothing for myself and that everyone be promoted and hired above me... that seems like a recipe for career suicide. And homelessness. And hunger.

 

:idontknow:

 

In his book, The Bad Catholic's Guide to the Seven Deadly Sins, John Zmirak writes about that prayer (page 220, if anyone has it):

 

A Catholic shrink I once knew said he kept this prayer out of the hands of the clinically depressed; indeed, the speaker in this prayer sounds like he's already afflicted with that disease. I'd also keep it away from spouses of any kind of addict, and pretty much every teen - except for beauty queens and quarterbacks. Just reading the thing, I can feel the serotonin draining out of my head. What is more, St. Thomas teaches that it's wrong for us to practice Humility when it tempts others to sin. That means accepting abuse and resigning yourself needlessly to suffering an injustice might, in fact, be un-Christian. Nowadays we call it "enabling". 

 

To be sure, it's critical for Christians to slip the snares of Vainglory - the yearning for undeserved praise and the tendency to take personal pride in things God handed you on a silver platter. Many instances of ethnic, racial, or national pride amount to one form or another. ...

 

But the sentiments  in the litany seem less a rejection of such nonsense than a comprehensive denial of most of the natural impulses God built into our psyche. To make this point more fully: If it's good to wish all these things for one's self, then one should equally wish them for one's children. I challenge the reader to go through the earlier litany and substitute for "I" the words "my son" or "my daughter". Hence, "that others may be loved more than my son, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it." That kind of takes the red paint right off the Schwinn bike, now doesn't it? 

 

Of course, there's a way to give this litany oa more charitable reading, and here I think we might come upon the truth behind the holy card: In the first part of the prayer, you're asking Christ to deliver you from fear and desire - desire for good but inessential things and fear of all sorts of suffering (and suffering, in itself, is objectively evil). Now God can bring good out of evil, but that doesn't mean we should go out and canonize Judas, no matter what National Geographic says. Our Lord in Gethsemane wasn't pumped up about the prospect of His suffering. He hadn't pestered a spiritual director into letting Him volunteer to die on a cross. He sweated blood in dread of what was coming and begged the Father to spare Him. We should follow His example. The Church encouraged martyrs to be steadfast; she steadfastly discouraged people from seeking martyrdom. ...

 

Insofar as we ask God to free us from anxiety over the future, we're acting like penitent packrats who bring in a professional organizer to help us throw out half our stuff. Likewise, by unloading extra baggage such as attachment to the easy and pleasant, we're freeing ourselves for service. If I really cannot bear to fly coach, that means I usually can't afford to travel. Likewise, if the only time you can bear to witness to the Gospel is among like-minded folks who will nod and pass the donuts, your usefulness to the Kingdom is...limited. 

 

...I think the good cardinal's litany should be reserved for future missionaries to Burma and patients with a formal diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. It's not so much a Humility nutrient as Humility chemo.

 

Okay, if you read all that, well, wow. Anyway, since I got this perspective, I don't really pray that Litany anymore. For someone who is frequently scrupulous, it did way more harm than good. (And if you hadn't read any of Zmirak's stuff, I really encourage it! He's a funny guy in person, and on paper.) 

[Gabriela]

Sometimes God answers prayers with a "no", if it's in your best interests. Desiring something and obtaining it are different things entirely. :)

 

I thought of that, but when I pray that litany, I am praying that God will help me to desire it. If I truly desired it, my behavior would change to facilitate obtaining it. Hence...

 

 

Fake it 'til you make it. :smile3: Pray that your desires come to match God's plan for you.

 

That, of course, is good advice. But it's not what the litany says! Know any good prayers I can replace that litany with that ask for this instead?

 

 

In his book, The Bad Catholic's Guide to the Seven Deadly Sins, John Zmirak writes about that prayer (page 220, if anyone has it):

 

A Catholic shrink I once knew said he kept this prayer out of the hands of the clinically depressed; indeed, the speaker in this prayer sounds like he's already afflicted with that disease. I'd also keep it away from spouses of any kind of addict, and pretty much every teen - except for beauty queens and quarterbacks. Just reading the thing, I can feel the serotonin draining out of my head. What is more, St. Thomas teaches that it's wrong for us to practice Humility when it tempts others to sin. That means accepting abuse and resigning yourself needlessly to suffering an injustice might, in fact, be un-Christian. Nowadays we call it "enabling". 

 

To be sure, it's critical for Christians to slip the snares of Vainglory - the yearning for undeserved praise and the tendency to take personal pride in things God handed you on a silver platter. Many instances of ethnic, racial, or national pride amount to one form or another. ...

 

But the sentiments  in the litany seem less a rejection of such nonsense than a comprehensive denial of most of the natural impulses God built into our psyche. To make this point more fully: If it's good to wish all these things for one's self, then one should equally wish them for one's children. I challenge the reader to go through the earlier litany and substitute for "I" the words "my son" or "my daughter". Hence, "that others may be loved more than my son, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it." That kind of takes the red paint right off the Schwinn bike, now doesn't it? 

 

Of course, there's a way to give this litany oa more charitable reading, and here I think we might come upon the truth behind the holy card: In the first part of the prayer, you're asking Christ to deliver you from fear and desire - desire for good but inessential things and fear of all sorts of suffering (and suffering, in itself, is objectively evil). Now God can bring good out of evil, but that doesn't mean we should go out and canonize Judas, no matter what National Geographic says. Our Lord in Gethsemane wasn't pumped up about the prospect of His suffering. He hadn't pestered a spiritual director into letting Him volunteer to die on a cross. He sweated blood in dread of what was coming and begged the Father to spare Him. We should follow His example. The Church encouraged martyrs to be steadfast; she steadfastly discouraged people from seeking martyrdom. ...

 

Insofar as we ask God to free us from anxiety over the future, we're acting like penitent packrats who bring in a professional organizer to help us throw out half our stuff. Likewise, by unloading extra baggage such as attachment to the easy and pleasant, we're freeing ourselves for service. If I really cannot bear to fly coach, that means I usually can't afford to travel. Likewise, if the only time you can bear to witness to the Gospel is among like-minded folks who will nod and pass the donuts, your usefulness to the Kingdom is...limited. 

 

...I think the good cardinal's litany should be reserved for future missionaries to Burma and patients with a formal diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. It's not so much a Humility nutrient as Humility chemo.

 

Okay, if you read all that, well, wow. Anyway, since I got this perspective, I don't really pray that Litany anymore. For someone who is frequently scrupulous, it did way more harm than good. (And if you hadn't read any of Zmirak's stuff, I really encourage it! He's a funny guy in person, and on paper.) 

 

I did read it all, and it was glorious. Thank you, Lil Red, for posting all that. I want to read that guy. And I am now going to replace the spot the Litany of Humility holds in my prayers with whatever Nihil (or anyone else) suggests. Because I, too, am scrupulous, at least in the sense that I do not feel it's honest to ask God for things I don't really want. Now that I've heard a frank opinion on why it's ok not to want those things, I feel much, MUCH better! :-)

 

Of course, if I ever join religious life, I'm adding it right back. Because there I can see it really leading to holiness. Without rendering me homeless.

[Nihil Obstat]

 

 

 

That, of course, is good advice. But it's not what the litany says! Know any good prayers I can replace that litany with that ask for this instead?

 

 

 

 

What if you composed a little prayer of your own to that effect, then prefaced your litany with it? I do that sometimes. 

Sort of like "Please help me to really mean this", but in whatever words are meaningful to you.