"i'd Believe In God If The World Wasn't So Horrible" -

[jazzytakara]

**As a background, my boyfriend is agnostic and I am a convert to Catholicism from the United Church of Canada**

 

So a statement about pornography being wrong lead to a debate about the good and bad of pornography versus the good and bad of religion (in particular Catholicism). My boyfriend stated that I cannot act "elitest" and say that God's teaching on pornography is wrong since that is my opinion and my opinion is not necessarily the right way, as many believe porn is wonderful, good, and more fulfilling than religion/Catholicism. This lead to greater debate and he stated that he'd be all for God if the world wasn't filled with people killing each other, if it wasn't filled with people dying of cancer, etc. I tried to explain freewill and he rebutted with the statement that God is not taking responsibility for his own evil creations, he is doing  a 'half-a**' job at caring for the earth. He also asked why God won't cure his mom's cancer the way Jesus supposedly cured people when he was on Earth two thousand years ago. I tried to explain the human body being temporal and original sin causing illness, etc. But I couldn't explain it very well, and he felt more like God is choosing to let people die of horrible diseases out of cruelty, as if he truly cared these bad things wouldn't happen. He also didn't like the freewill action as he felt if we are meant to choose God or now, letting evil into  the world so that we can love God freely is selfish.  Then the debate went on to the body and soul. He believe that the body and soul stay together, so if a body was laid to rest/ashes were scattered in a certain location, it is acceptable to believe the soul remains in that same bodily location. I explained what the Catechism stated and it didn't make sense to him still. He views that Christians and Catholics live in fear of God's judgement, and as such can never live life to the fullest, as they are dominated by "the school yard bully that is God".  He compared God to a child stealing lunch money from another child, stating that they can't have the money unless they follow his/her rules He equates this to God withholding Heaven unless we follow his rules. I explained that a bully's rules aren't good and are for selfish reasons, where as God's rules are just and good and are meant for our benefit. He used homosexuality as an example of God not wanting to treat people equally and not allowing them to fulfill their hearts desires and live happy lives. He believes that life cannot be lived to its fullest extent if we are too worried about what some god/God thinks and where we will end up for all eternity. 

 

I'm not particularly well versed in theology and church teachings, so could someone please help me answer some if not all of these questions. I understand that faith is a grace given by God, but I'd like to better be able to defend my beliefs.. and its really hard for me to take my religion being attacked every time I mention something to do with it, etc. He honestly believes it would seem that religion does more evil than any sin could, and subsequently if God exists he is evil, as he created people and allows for atrocities to occur on a daily basis.  I ended up with the dumb statement when it was originally a debate about pornography and religion that going to mass won't negatively affect him or our relationship, but me coming home to him watching porn would be like him cheating on me, thus pornography would be more damaging in that case....not a good argument....help please...=(

Edited June 14, 2013 by jazzytakara

[HisChildForever]

I have three observations.

 

1. Your boyfriend is clearly in a rough place - his mother has cancer. Right now he's angry, and (in his mind) if God exists then God is either responsible for it or responsible to fix it. 

 

2. If he's open to understanding religion, Christianity in particular, he should read "Mere Christianity." I finished it a week or so ago and I think it would answer a lot of his questions. Lewis uses analogies to convey his points which your boyfriend seems pretty keen on doing too.

 

3. You just have to sit your boyfriend down and explain to him that your faith is extraordinarily important to you and he needs to respect that. Tell him that you're open to questions and discussions but that they absolutely must be respectful. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

If your boyfriend has emotional reasons for his disbelief, it is probably better to avoid a religious debate. To be honest, the question of God's existence can't fully be proven one way or the other yet...

Edited June 14, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[jazzytakara]

I usually don't bring it up though, it arises from no where it would seem at times. I don't belief in forcing religious beliefs on others, I will speak about it if other parties wish to discuss it. However, it is an intricate part of my life, so I don't feel like I should hide it in my day-to-day life. =/ He is genuinely trying to discuss it with me, to understand where I am coming from, and I him, but I can't adequately explain things the way a priest or theologian could explain the principles of Catholicism/Christianity. I just wish I had better answers and that our discussions did not result in arguments most of the time. =/

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I usually don't bring it up though, it arises from no where it would seem at times. I don't belief in forcing religious beliefs on others, I will speak about it if other parties wish to discuss it. However, it is an intricate part of my life, so I don't feel like I should hide it in my day-to-day life. =/ He is genuinely trying to discuss it with me, to understand where I am coming from, and I him, but I can't adequately explain things the way a priest or theologian could explain the principles of Catholicism/Christianity. I just wish I had better answers and that our discussions did not result in arguments most of the time. =/

 

If you actually want to quickly learn many of these common arguments, you could watch a couple of Atheist vs. Christian debates on youtube.

Edited June 14, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[jazzytakara]

If you actually want to quickly learn many of these common arguments, you could watch a couple of Atheist vs. Christian debates on youtube.

 Good idea! It would probably be good for both of us to watch as a third party, that way we are seeking answers and understanding of one another, but not necessarily attacking the other's opinions or beliefs. Also a lot of debates involve more academic sources and professionals who actually study these issues in depth, so another opportunity to learn.

[jazzytakara]

I have three observations.

 

1. Your boyfriend is clearly in a rough place - his mother has cancer. Right now he's angry, and (in his mind) if God exists then God is either responsible for it or responsible to fix it. 

 

2. If he's open to understanding religion, Christianity in particular, he should read "Mere Christianity." I finished it a week or so ago and I think it would answer a lot of his questions. Lewis uses analogies to convey his points which your boyfriend seems pretty keen on doing too.

 

3. You just have to sit your boyfriend down and explain to him that your faith is extraordinarily important to you and he needs to respect that. Tell him that you're open to questions and discussions but that they absolutely must be respectful. 

 (1) Very true, which is why I try to avoid these conversations to avoid unnecessary hurt, give him space so to speak.

 

(2) I just bought this book a couple of weeks ago, I'm reading it once I finish The Screwtape Letters, so I will have to take notes from it! =)

 

(3) This is what we try to do, it just doesn't work out sometimes. We both need to practice patience with one another it would seem. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Lol, if yall are gunna watch them together make sure you get a good, somewhat evenly matched one. Hitchens vs. D'Souza is a good start. 

Edited June 14, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Guest]

I'm waiting for something big to happen supernaturally in the next 5 or 10 years...Just something...Like ghost being caught on tape or something like that...Just to 100 percent prove that the supernatural exist...Because once you can prove that element is real then believing in God seems very logical...I already feel that super natural element has almost been proved to be real but its lacking just a little bit to where everybody agrees that yes there is more then what we know about and science can answer the questions to...

Edited June 14, 2013 by Guest

[HisChildForever]

I usually don't bring it up though, it arises from no where it would seem at times. I don't belief in forcing religious beliefs on others, I will speak about it if other parties wish to discuss it. However, it is an intricate part of my life, so I don't feel like I should hide it in my day-to-day life. =/ He is genuinely trying to discuss it with me, to understand where I am coming from, and I him, but I can't adequately explain things the way a priest or theologian could explain the principles of Catholicism/Christianity. I just wish I had better answers and that our discussions did not result in arguments most of the time. =/

 

Yeah that's why he needs to learn from an outside source. Not because you struggle to explain things to him, but because it'd be better to have a third party, be it a book or a priest.

[Apotheoun]

I took care of my elderly mother, who suffered from emphysema (and eventually lung cancer), and watched as her physical condition deteriorated over the last seven years of her life (she was eventually bedridden), and I can honestly say that I never would have been able to help her if it had not been for the fact that I had faith in God, and that I knew in my heart that He was there with me when I felt too weak to go on.

 

My mother always worried that she was a burden to me, but - through the grace of God - I knew that I was given the gift of being allowed to take care of her. I also witnessed over the course of those many years the growth of faith within my mother's own life, which culminated in her conversion to Byzantine Catholicism less than a month before her death. God gave me the strength to help my mother, and God gave my mother the joy that she needed in order to get through the trying times she faced due to her illness. Glory to God for all things.