Another Of John's Anti-catholic Statements

[ICTHUS]

Hey guys:

Can you refute this statement?

1 John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[quote]In light of the Bible's many statements about the (post-Fall, pre-Glory) continual sinfulness of the human heart, it is obvious that only an entirely exceptional individual could refrain from sin for any extended period of time, let alone be sinless. Rome thus claims that Mary was saved from sin in the womb and kept from sin her entire life by God -- she was granted particular, special, miraculous grace. What is the support for this, however? The Word of God, which equips the man of God for every good work? No; the Scripture makes quite a ruckus about the sinlessness of Christ, but no mention is made of the sinlessness of Mary. Instead, Rome relies on popes and councils and traditions -- doctrines invented by men who continually elevate Mary, more and more.

She has become their second Jesus. Jesus was the Son of God; Mary was the Mother of God. Jesus had the Virgin Birth; Mary had the Immaculate Conception. Jesus was sinless; Mary was sinless. Jesus is our Mediator; Mary is our Mediatrix. Jesus is our Redeemer; Mary is our Redemptrix. Jesus is Lord of Heaven; Mary is Queen of Heaven. When will it end?[/quote]

[voiciblanche]

I don't know if this will mean anything to you, but I'll share it anyway. I've always been sort of skeptical on the topic of Mary's sinlessness because people are always saying, "Mary is so awesome because she said 'Yes!'" I always thought, "Well, she wouldn't say no, would she? She was made without sin. She couldn't sin!" I asked my theology teacher about this, and he said that wasn't right. Mary wasn't a robot. She could have sinned. God preserved her from sin, but she still had free will. He said that when we sin, it's like we're walking along and there's a hole, which is sin. We fall in the hole. Now, with Mary, she was walking along, and God jumps in front of her and says, "Hey, Mary! There's sin right there! Don't fall in it!" And then Mary's like, "Gee, thanks, God!" So, Mary is sinless, but it is through God's own choice. He meant for her to be sinless, and he did more to preserve her from sin than he did with us. She isn't a "second Jesus;" there is no second Jesus. But in all reality, she is probably the closest human to our Lord. She was His mother! She was without sin! And our Lord wishes for us to honor her. Through honoring her, we give glory to Him.

[ICTHUS]

This is the debunk I gave to John's post in my livejournal (I didn't actually post it to CGR though):

[quote]"In light of the Bible's many statements about the (post-Fall, pre-Glory) continual sinfulness of the human heart, it is obvious that only an entirely exceptional individual could refrain from sin for any extended period of time, let alone be sinless. [/quote] Unless she was preserved from sin

[quote]Rome thus claims that Mary was saved from sin in the womb and kept from sin her entire life by God -- she was granted particular, special, miraculous grace. What is the support for this, however? The Word of God, which equips the man of God for every good work? No; the Scripture makes quite a ruckus about the sinlessness of Christ, but no mention is made of the sinlessness of Mary. Instead, Rome relies on popes and councils and traditions -- doctrines invented by men who continually elevate Mary, more and more."[/quote] Begs the question by assuming Sola Scriptura. Not to mention the typological connection is plainly evident.

She has become their second Jesus.

(Me) Not true, thus a strawman. Show me proof from the Church's teachings where we say she is equal to Him.

Jesus was the Son of God; Mary was the Mother of God.

(Me) I see. So he denies the ruling of the Council of Ephesus that she was indeed the Mother of God? It's a good thing this isn't the 4th Century, otherwise the Council would've excommunicated him for being a Nestorian!

Jesus had the Virgin Birth; Mary had the Immaculate Conception.

(Me) I don't even see how these two are related! The former has to do with Jesus being born of a virgin, not with His sinlessness. A sinful person could have been born of a virgin, it just so happens that Jesus WAS sinless.

Jesus was sinless; Mary was sinless.

(Me)Jesus was sinless because He is GOD. Mary was sinless because God wanted to show forth His glory in her by creating her that way, just as He shows forth His glory in making wicked sinners righteous in Christ.

Jesus is our Mediator; Mary is our Mediatrix.

(Me) Statement taken out of context. Strawman argument. Read the Catechism on the matter and then argue against it.

Jesus is our Redeemer; Mary is our Redemptrix.

(Me) co-redemptrix, actually, with a small "r" - because she participated in the redemption of humanity by bringing forth the Christ. But without Christ, Mary wouldn't even participate in the redemption, because there would be no redemption to participate in!

Jesus is Lord of Heaven; Mary is Queen of Heaven.

(Me) She's the Queen Mother of Heaven, and a type of the Church, our Mother and our Teacher (Ecclesiam Catholicam Mater et Magistra Est!). This in no way makes her equal to Christ or a "Second Christ"

When will it end?

(Me) It will end when moron Presbyterians stop making ridiculous claims.

[Anna]

"Hail, full of grace..." Luke 1:38

Full of grace means devoid of sin.

Whoever wrote that piece dissing the Church's teachings on Mary doesn't understand the prefix "co" very well. A co-pilot isn't the same thing as the pilot.
Mary is "co" because she "co"operated with God's operations. She desired God's will in all things, denying her own selfish will.

We've made her a second Jesus! I resent that. I truly do.

You know full well that the Church teaches that Mary was a mere creature of the Divine Creator. You know that the Church teaches that Mary has no divine nature, though she bore the Divine Son of God. And you know the difference between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria.
The person who wrote that piece certainly does not! :angry:

If Mary were "another Jesus" as this person claims, then when do we eat the Body of Mary and drink her blood???????????????????? Ay???????
Do we Catholics consider ourselves members of the Mystical Body of Mary?????
No.
The person who wrote those statements does not understand hyperdulia, and in his pompous "righteousness," he mocks the Mother God chose for Himself and the Church God founded, to which He calls all His faithful followers.

[b]ICTHUS, I love your answer to this guy. It's so precise, so eloquent, balanced, and unemotional.[/b] I would just sock him in the gut and give him a noogy.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited May 31, 2004 by Anna

[Quietfire]

You go Anna.

I just wrote a whole Chapter on Mary in debate. Anyone doubting that Mary was devoid of sin please read it.

I even challenged ANYONE to debate it.
It is simply put.

Title thread called "Understanding the Mother of God."

They arent my words, but the words of F. Sheed.

And I find it quite offensive to see people still just dont get it, in reference to Mary.
Please read it. Its quite an eye opener.


Peace.

[Quietfire]

this is just a bit of it in case anyone is interested.

[quote]To start simply, the Son existed before his mother. So that he is the only Son who is in a postition to choose who his mother should be. He could choose therefore, what every son would choose if he could, a mother who would suit him best. Further, it goes with the very heart of sonship that a son wants to give his mother gifts; and Christ, being God, could give her all that she would want. To his giving power there was no limit. And what above all she wanted was union with God, the completest union possible to a human being of her will with God's will, grace therefore in her soul.

He was her Son, and he gave it lavishly. She responded totally, so that she was sinless. It was her response to the grace of God that made her supreme in holiness- higher even than the highest angel, the Church tells us. We may pause for a moment to look at this truth. By nature she was lower than the least angel, for human nature as such is less than angelic. But, any relation in the order of grace is higher than any in the order of nature. It is by grace that we are closer to God; by our response, that is, to the created share in his own life that God offers us. By grace Our Lady outranks all created beings. But only because she responded to God's love more perfectly. St. John Chrysostom says, "She would not have been blessed, though she had borne him in the body, had she not heard the word of God and kept it."[/quote]


Peace all.
Tell him to refute that.