BG45 Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share Posted June 13, 2013 I'm starting to think that I'm the only one on here who didn't go to a Catholic school or university. I didn't either, if it helps. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillT Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I didn't either, if it helps. :) Me neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 True. What I was thinking of is a little different, though. It came up in a Religious Epistemology class I took when we read a paper by a Christian (I wish I could remember the title). His main argument was that atheists always say God should reveal himself to them if He expects their belief, but the atheists typically do not try to live a lifestyle in accordance with Christianity. Thus, the atheists should amend their lifestyle first and then see if they receive any insight into the question of God's existence. The response from most of the atheists in the class was that they would not be willing to change anything they were doing that Christianity considered sinfull because they didn't want to do without those pleasures before knowing that God is real. Maybe I'm understanding this incorrectly. Couldn't a Muslim make the same argument? Would someone need to try out every religion in order to know which one is right? We humans are motivated by reward. If one does not believe in eternal salvation and a divine entity who cares about sin, it makes it much harder for that person to adopt certain values that are specific to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I'm starting to think that I'm the only one on here who didn't go to a Catholic school or university. I'm a public high school kid, though I did attend a Catholic university for my undergraduate work. There was an undeniable Catholic atmosphere on campus but I never got involved aside from attending daily Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Maybe I'm understanding this incorrectly. Couldn't a Muslim make the same argument? Would someone need to try out every religion in order to know which one is right? We humans are motivated by reward. If one does not believe in eternal salvation and a divine entity who cares about sin, it makes it much harder for that person to adopt certain values that are specific to Christianity. A person with no religion or religious background would definitely have to be open to religion (or spirituality) in order to ask honest questions and look into the various faiths. If that person decided to narrow his investigation to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, I think he'd be more inclined to look into Christianity -if only- because the other two are so deeply rooted in culture and family. I know there are converts to Islam and Judaism but I just think someone would put more interest in Christianity because it really doesn't have "roots" in any one particular country, although different countries (and denominations) do celebrate it differently i.e. West and East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I still don't think its fair to say people are atheist cause they want to live lives full of sin...Mabey this is the case with some but not all...Some people just don't believe in God...I think its that simple...Its not like christian people live perfect lives...Mabey some do a good job but a lot don't...So when you say its as simple as atheist just want to go all out and embrace sin I think that's b.s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillT Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Maybe I'm understanding this incorrectly. Couldn't a Muslim make the same argument? Would someone need to try out every religion in order to know which one is right? We humans are motivated by reward. If one does not believe in eternal salvation and a divine entity who cares about sin, it makes it much harder for that person to adopt certain values that are specific to Christianity. I'm not saying it was a good argument. It just seemed that, if someone was truly open to searching for truth in the area of religion, it would not be a huge sacrifice to go without certain pleasures for a short time to evaluate the claims. For example, if I were an atheist arguing against Islam and an imam called me and said I had to give up alcohol for a period of time to be more open to God's revelation, I would be open to trying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Again though you are acting like sin is the the only reason someone is an atheist. What if they just think christianity and the Bible are b.s ? Or they look at the history of Christianity and the Church and shake their head ? Why are you assuming they are sinning any worse then you ? Edited June 13, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I'm starting to think that I'm the only one on here who didn't go to a Catholic school or university. My primary, middle, and high schools were only nominally Catholic (publicly funded), and I go to a large secular university. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillT Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Again though you are acting like sin is the the only reason someone is an atheist. What if they just think christianity and the Bible are b.s ? Or they look at the history of Christianity and the Church and shake their head ? Why are you assuming they are sinning any worse then you ? I'm not. Again, it was an argument from an article in a philosophy class. It's just that, rather than attack the reasoning in the article, the atheists in the class immediately said the equivalent of "I don't wanna and you can't make me!" I actually argued against the author when we had to write a paper on it because of much the same thing that you're saying. God doesn't require perfection before giving grace. If He did, nobody (including believers) would ever convert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Gotcha...My bad Willt...Godbless buddy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillT Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Gotcha...My bad Willt...Godbless buddy... No problem. I probably should have made myself more clear in the first post. God bless you as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I'm not saying it was a good argument. It just seemed that, if someone was truly open to searching for truth in the area of religion, it would not be a huge sacrifice to go without certain pleasures for a short time to evaluate the claims. For example, if I were an atheist arguing against Islam and an imam called me and said I had to give up alcohol for a period of time to be more open to God's revelation, I would be open to trying it. If the person isn't being intellectually lazy, i believe it'd be pretty exhausting and time consuming. This argument doesn't only apply to atheists. If a sheikh told you that your disbelief in Islam was due to you not living a Muslim lifestyle, would you adopt Muslim practices to find out whether Islam is more true than your current belief system? What if he challenged you to fast during Ramadan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicsAreKewl Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 A person with no religion or religious background would definitely have to be open to religion (or spirituality) in order to ask honest questions and look into the various faiths. If that person decided to narrow his investigation to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, I think he'd be more inclined to look into Christianity -if only- because the other two are so deeply rooted in culture and family. I know there are converts to Islam and Judaism but I just think someone would put more interest in Christianity because it really doesn't have "roots" in any one particular country, although different countries (and denominations) do celebrate it differently i.e. West and East. I dunno, actually. I would say it would be between Islam and Christianity. Judaism isn't as big on proselytizing, from what I understand. I think the cultural/communal aspects of Islam can be very attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 All too often, anything evil any religious person does discredits religion in general. Look how often the 'New Atheists' lump 9/11 in with the Inquisition. In my opinion, that's one of the most stupid and intellectually lazy of the popular atheist "arguments." Logically, the bad behavior of people who believe in a God does absolutely nothing to prove that God does not exist - unless you want to make the bizarre argument that God would somehow take away away the free will of everyone who believes in His existence. The argument is usually made part of an appeal to the alleged moral superiority of atheism which begins with the false (and easily refutable) claim that "religion caused more killing than anything else in the history of the world. This is easily refuted by showing the number killings by atheistic Communism killed more in a span of less than a century than all the religiously-motivated killings in the world. I also think it ironic that those atheists who like to insist on lumping all religion that believe in a God or gods together, as if they were one and the same thing ("Catholics, Muslims, Wiccans, Satanists - you're all just Theists to me") are very picky about making distinctions between different kinds of atheists, and will often insist that Communists or other unsavory atheists were not "true atheists" - as if atheism had any meaning beyond lack of belief in a God. Atheists like to draw you into a pissing match over who killed more people over what, but while it can be an opportunity for setting the historical record straight, it's generally a waste of time and a distraction completely irrelevant to the issue of the truth of God's existence. Most atheists are not mass-murdering maniacs, but then neither are most Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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