Listening To Young Atheists

[Socrates]

Is it anyone's experience that many people reject religion simply because they don't wish to be condemned for whatever sinful activities they feel like engaging in?

 

 

That does match part of my experience. Though there are always other things, of course.

 

While I think in many cases that's part of it, it seems to me that pride (the primordial sin), and often intellectual pride (particularly in the case of scientists and those of an intellectual bent) is a big part of it - rather than atheists liking to fornicate (or whatever their sin of choice) more than the next guy,

 

It seems atheists don't like having a moral authority bigger than themselves they must conform to whether they agree or not, nor having to acknowledge an Infinite Being who will always be above and beyond the grasp and full comprehension of our finite human minds.

[Chestertonian]

The Catholics I know are generally pretty good at defending their faith against Protestants, which, frankly, is easy. When it comes to arguing philosophy with atheists, though, not so much.

[Socrates]

...This world is messed up and atheist have really good arguments when they bring their attack on a non existant God...And religion and christianity has failed so many times over and over....If

 

As G.K. Chesterton said (referenced by others on this thread), it's not that Christianity has been tried and failed, but that Christianity has not actually been tried.  All the evil done by self-professed Christians and members of the Church does not come from them following the teachings of Christ, but from disobeying and disregarding the teachings of the Faith they profess.

 

As Jesus said regarding the Pharisees, do as they say and not as they do.

 

Not to disregard this, as I think the evil actions of hypocritical Christians do more to discredit the Faith in people's eyes than any intellectual arguments.  I think the devil works extra hard to bring down and corrupt those who represent the Faith and the Church in the public eye.

 

(But if you think the historical record of Christians is bad, you should look at the record of non-Christians.

[Socrates]

If they were sins, shouldn't we be able to intuitively feel that they were wrong?

 

This may be controversial, but I actually believe that some peope don't feel things as sinful. I have always thought that you should know that what you are doing is a sin for it to be a sin. In fact, the very definition suggests it, an act of the will that goes against God. If you don't know that it goes against God, if there is no knowledge of good and evil, can there be any rebellion?

 

There are non-Catholic, even secular reasons for not watching porn or masturbating. Even as an atheist, I knew that they were harmful for me, mostly because I have an addictive personality. I work towards abstinence currently. But that's not to say that my other friends knew or felt that. I have no idea if they feel bad when they watch porn or have pre-marital sex or the like. In fact i have a feeling that they have a much healthier relationship their own sexuality than I do.

 

 

OK, let me ask this then: Why does sin have to feel bad?

 

The problem with this mentality is then good and evil, right and wrong become entirely subjective.  "If it feels good, do it."

As Christians, we believe in concupiscence - that man's inclinations became disordered after the fall, and evil is often attractive, or "feels good."

 

It becomes impossible to judge any action as objectively wrong, as there are always depraved individuals who feel no regret or remorse over actions that most of us would regard as self-evidently evil and twisted.

[Chestertonian]

As G.K. Chesterton said (referenced by others on this thread), it's not that Christianity has been tried and failed, but that Christianity has not actually been tried.  All the evil done by self-professed Christians and members of the Church does not come from them following the teachings of Christ, but from disobeying and disregarding the teachings of the Faith they profess.

 

As Jesus said regarding the Pharisees, do as they say and not as they do.

 

Not to disregard this, as I think the evil actions of hypocritical Christians do more to discredit the Faith in people's eyes than any intellectual arguments.  I think the devil works extra hard to bring down and corrupt those who represent the Faith and the Church in the public eye.

 

(But if you think the historical record of Christians is bad, you should look at the record of non-Christians.

 

All too often, anything evil any religious person does discredits religion in general. Look how often the 'New Atheists' lump 9/11 in with the Inquisition.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Chestertonian

[Kia ora]

OK, let me ask this then: Why does sin have to feel bad?

 

Can sin feel good? Personally, I have never felt good in sinning. There's pleasure in sinning, but pleasure is far different from happiness. Sin is a disordering of how we are meant to be. It has consequences on us. Even if it feels good at the time, it is only just a further falling away from God, which is even more harmful and painful.

 

But it's not just that a certain friend of mine feels good when he has sex with his girlfriend that makes me reluctant to say that he's sinning. It's that I look at the fruits of his life. They are unmarried, but they've been together since high school. They know each other in a way that I could only wish to know someone. He was telling me that it's so very hard to find someone you're truly comfortable to be yourself with for the first time in your life, in fact, someone who you feel you feel more yourself around. Someone whose thoughts and interests are in your head as much as your own.

 

What I see is love. Now if love exists and God is love, then I cannot see where that comes from other than God. If they are sinning by having pre-marital sex, then love is more powerful than sin, because they are more indicative of caring than any other I know.

 

I think the people who want to be Christians are generally people who know they're sick, who know they're unhealthy. God is the doctor. Of course, all people are sick and unhealthy, but they're sick and unhealthy in their own ways. I don't want to make people follow my exact recovery path since my prescription is tailored for me.

 

Since we're discussing GK Chesterton, I once read a great quote from him where he says something along the lines of 'the only thing about Christianity that can be proved is original sin'. I feel that's true. People should be able to feel - if not know - that they are sinning, because sin is evidently destructive to our lives.

[arfink]

Can sin feel good? Personally, I have never felt good in sinning. There's pleasure in sinning, but pleasure is far different from happiness. Sin is a disordering of how we are meant to be. It has consequences on us. Even if it feels good at the time, it is only just a further falling away from God, which is even more harmful and painful.

 

But it's not just that a certain friend of mine feels good when he has sex with his girlfriend that makes me reluctant to say that he's sinning. It's that I look at the fruits of his life. They are unmarried, but they've been together since high school. They know each other in a way that I could only wish to know someone. He was telling me that it's so very hard to find someone you're truly comfortable to be yourself with for the first time in your life, in fact, someone who you feel you feel more yourself around. Someone whose thoughts and interests are in your head as much as your own.

 

What I see is love. Now if love exists and God is love, then I cannot see where that comes from other than God. If they are sinning by having pre-marital sex, then love is more powerful than sin, because they are more indicative of caring than any other I know.

 

I think the people who want to be Christians are generally people who know they're sick, who know they're unhealthy. God is the doctor. Of course, all people are sick and unhealthy, but they're sick and unhealthy in their own ways. I don't want to make people follow my exact recovery path since my prescription is tailored for me.

 

Since we're discussing GK Chesterton, I once read a great quote from him where he says something along the lines of 'the only thing about Christianity that can be proved is original sin'. I feel that's true. People should be able to feel - if not know - that they are sinning, because sin is evidently destructive to our lives.

 

True, I suppose when one considers the ultimate Good, then sin doesn't feel good.

 

Except you're disproving your own assertion here, because we have revealed truths indicating that fornication is sin, and guess what? It feels pretty good. Your friend proves that. But fornication is objectively sinful.

 

Now, is your friend culpable? Perhaps not. I might even wager probably not, due to ignorance and possibly to circumstance.

 

Also, the effects of sin are not always the complete removal of all love. Humans are imperfect, even the saints were imperfect. It does not surprise me at all that their love is genuine and lasting, much as it saddens me that they are unwilling to marry and make their existing commitment to each other permanent and life-giving as it ought to be. Having sex means, from the nature of our human bodies, that we wish to give ourselves totally, freely, forever, and fruitfully. Sabotaging that doesn't eliminate all of the good, but it's still wrong.

 

God makes good from evil. The mothers of children born because of rape often have great love for their children. That does not make rape un-sinful. A mother whose child was conceived in rape does not look upon the good of her child and wish that for the sake of such a good that she be raped again.

[Guest]

Meant to say sence not sense....lol One day I will make a post with no spelling mistakes...Just spelling though...I will never get the commas and all that stuff right...I don't even try with that...Also good post Socrates...You make good points as always....God Bless...

Edited June 13, 2013 by Guest

[WillT]

I think fear of being wrong plays into it a lot. A good number of the atheists I've known say that they want to live the way they want rather than how a God that may not exist wants them to live.

[Guest]

I know some atheist and agnostics who got their stuff together...Its not like they're out living crazy lives...They pry sin no worse then your average christian...They just don't believe in God or know if He/She exist...If I'm an atheist and I accept Christ into my heart and get Baptised God should maniferst Himself somehow in my life right ? The atheist should know God is real...I know when I experienced huge doubts and really searched for God I had stuff happen that made me say God is real...We should expect this right ? I know protestants will say yes for sure...But I'm not sure how Catholics answer this question ?

[Guest]

Because if I'm atheist and I really say ok I'm gonna do this God thing and believe in Christ 100 percent I want something to confirm this is the real deal....If I can't expect that then as an atheist I'm going to say this is a joke and I'm not going to believe in a imaginary God that isn't real and be controlled by religion and a church that says she's the only way to salvation and wants control of my life in every aspect and my views on every single thing...

Edited June 13, 2013 by Guest

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I think fear of being wrong plays into it a lot. A good number of the atheists I've known say that they want to live the way they want rather than how a God that may not exist wants them to live.

 

I see religious people doing the same thing, though. They simplify the uneffable into an entity that agrees with their world view. I think it simply comes down to the person. Some people are truly interested in the question of God's existance while others are more convinced by their emotions.

[BG45]

(I'm still reading, just thought I'd say that, I'm really enjoying the discussion that's come about!)

[WillT]

I see religious people doing the same thing, though. They simplify the uneffable into an entity that agrees with their world view. I think it simply comes down to the person. Some people are truly interested in the question of God's existance while others are more convinced by their emotions.

True. What I was thinking of is a little different, though. It came up in a Religious Epistemology class I took when we read a paper by a Christian (I wish I could remember the title). His main argument was that atheists always say God should reveal himself to them if He expects their belief, but the atheists typically do not try to live a lifestyle in accordance with Christianity. Thus, the atheists should amend their lifestyle first and then see if they receive any insight into the question of God's existence. The response from most of the atheists in the class was that they would not be willing to change anything they were doing that Christianity considered sinfull because they didn't want to do without those pleasures before knowing that God is real.

[Chestertonian]

I'm starting to think that I'm the only one on here who didn't go to a Catholic school or university.