Listening To Young Atheists

[Nihil Obstat]

Interesting. I still think it's an unfair statement. There is also the claim that belief in God is deeply rooted in a fear of death. I don't see how these arguments are different.

I think it is a reason. I do not think it is the reason.

Certainly some 'religious' people are such because they are afraid of death. Of course, that person is not very sincere in their faith.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Atheists like Nietzsche and Hitchens were very uncomfortable with the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God.

 

True, but I wouldn't say that's the main reason for their disbelief. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I think it is a reason. I do not think it is the reason.

Certainly some 'religious' people are such because they are afraid of death. Of course, that person is not very sincere in their faith.

 

Fair enough. 

[Chestertonian]

True, but I wouldn't say that's the main reason for their disbelief. 

 

It might not be a reason for their disbelief at all.

[Ice_nine]

I think it is a reason. I do not think it is the reason.

Certainly some 'religious' people are such because they are afraid of death. Of course, that person is not very sincere in their faith.

 

 

That's not fair to say they're insincere. Imperfect =/= insincere.

[Ice_nine]

I've heard Dinesh D'Souza make a similar argument. In all honesty, I think it's kind of cynical. I'm bothered by the idea that people are atheists because they want to sin or people are Christians because they need a security blanket.

 

 

I'm bothered by the security blanket theory because life after death that never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ends is the most frightening concept when you give it more than two seconds of thought. All of these physical laws we've learned to be tethered to, all of our senses that have been honed thru our bodies will no longer be experienced when we are outside of our own bodies wondering how the hell we can still sense anything without them. And oh, btw you're going to face an all-powerful God and account for your life and perhaps you'll burn forever on some technicality. And even if you were a good person you're friends and family that you hold so dear well, they may have spurned themselves *cue the 'how awful for you to believe in a god who would be so cruel argument*.

 

I mean shutting my eyes for the last time and ceasing to exists often seems a lot less scary. And while death will always be painful there'd be a lot less anxiety knowing there's zero chance for my loved ones who have passed to be suffering in any way.

 

 

Sorry this was a tangent

[Nihil Obstat]

That's not fair to say they're insincere. Imperfect =/= insincere.

Hm. This might be true if we are willing to argue that a person cannot be unintentionally insincere. I think it is possible. Lots of people believe things for rather bad reasons, but they simply do not get around to evaluating those beliefs. They may be insincerely held, but they may simply have never realized it.

But I think that is more of a semantic distinction.

[Basilisa Marie]

A bit of background. When I came here to Phatmass, I called myself an atheist. I no longer do that.

 

Taking the Bible seriously can mean many things. Does it mean that you have to believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God? If it does, then I don't take the Bible seriously. And if believing that the Bible is scientifically, historically or morally good in all its aspects was required to be a Christian, then I would never have looked at Christianity again.

 

For what it's worth, I don't consider myself a Christian, but Christianity is the religion that certainly most influences me. I do believe I'm taking the Bible seriously when I think that the Bible is a human creation that owes its message to the people who wrote it and the context in which they wrote it. If I have to either reject Jesus' message, the one I live by, to love our enemies or to reject the inerrancy of the Bible because God says in the Bible to massacre the inhabitants of a country, then I will gladly throw away the inerrancy of the Bible.

 

When I was an atheist, the worst thing anyone could have done was to try to convert me to their Christianity. I had to find my own reason to follow Christ. And Christianity, the particular denomination of someone, would have been the greatest obstacle to that.

 

I don't try to convert my friends to my beliefs because frankly, I needed Christ. I'm a messed up person. I know that. I know I'm a sinner, I know it with more certainty than anything I've ever known. But I don't know if my friends are. They seem happy and content enough, even if they are atheists or Muslims. How do I know that they're not following Christ in their own way, in their own religion or lack of such? They may not believe God exists, but does that mean God is absent from their lives? They may follow Muhammad, but does that mean they're not following Jesus?

 

I doubt that. In fact I doubt a lot of things. How do I know I'm right? And since I'm not sure, why should I convince them to follow what I myself am not sure of?

 

And it wasn't anyone else who converted me, it wasn't any of my Christian friends. It was me who converted myself. I don't even think it's possible to 'convert' people. Prosyletise, yes. Spread the Good News, sure. I can only encourage more information about Christianity (and different forms of Christianity!). But to *convert* people? I don't believe I have that power. So I don't try.

 

I'd reject inerrancy too if I thought it meant that God thinks it's okay to massacre others.  But I don't reject it, because I have to believe there is something more at work there.  I don't know what it is, but I have to believe that there is part of the picture that I just don't see.  I'm a big fan of the "God has a plan, and I don't know what it is" type of thing.  It's an exercise of trust and faith for me, to believe that God knows what he's doing, even when I run into troubling passages of scripture.  

I think what you say about people converting you to "THEIR" Christianity is an astute point.  Everyone's experience of God is unique, and can't be fully communicated to another person with any human language.  At the Grotto at my alma mater there's a quote from St. Bernadette carved on a stone lectern that says, "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."   I think that sums it up well.  You have to have your own experience of the divine to have faith.  

 

The thing is, in my experience talking to people and witnessing the conversions of a few close friends, I don't think anyone ever does any converting.  God is the only one who can convert someone.  All we can do is be the best tools in his shed, make ourselves as open as possible for him to use.  I try to be the best Catholic I can be because I think it's right, I think it has the best claim to authenticity to being Christ's Church.  Because even when I have bad days and call everything into question, I know that I would rather devote my whole short, mortal existence to the Church and have it be all for nothing than do anything else.  I believe it gives us the best tools to tackle problems of both a temporal and an eternal nature.  So I think it's worth it to try and convince people to join my team.  :)  If I know what I have is the best, why wouldn't I want to share it with others?  I think God has a plan for other religions and various Christian denominations.  But that doesn't stop me from praying that all those who seek truth find it in the Catholic Church.  I like to think that I respect the uniqueness of everyone's experience of God.  Heck, one of my best friends had her first experience of God by reading the Book of Mormon (imagine the blow to my pride).  But why should I be complacent to let people think that there isn't anything better, if I believe there is?  

[Guest]

I have had experiences with God so I have this huge part of me that knows He's real deep down inside...Mabey its the Graces of Baptism on my life since a baby...I still have memories of being around the age of 5 or 6 and thinking in depth about living forever and how crazy that really was....Sorta like Ice Nine was saying....But since a kid and into my adulthood I've always had experiences with God (some pretty crazy) to make me believe He's real....Of course its possible I guess my brain is playing some crazy cruel trick on me and God doesn't exist at all...I've entertained that thought more and more lately and its scary and depressing....Anyhow Christianity makes the most sense to me...If God exist I think Christianity is the true faith...I won't complain about the Bible because I have done that enough lately....You guys know my frustrations there....But as far as atheist go can't say I blame a lot of them for not believing....I still would think being agnostic makes more sense.....But to be honest if I hadn't had the experiences I have had with God I doubt I would just believe to believe....This world is messed up and atheist have really good arguments when they bring their attack on a non existant God...And religion and christianity has failed so many times over and over....If someone really doesn't believe God exist In their eyes they are just being honest with themselves when they say they are agnostic or atheist...And when you don't believe and really feel that way you have no patience for something like religion that has so much blood and hate on its hands....If they are ever to believe it will only be by the love of Jesus...Not Spx types telling them how 90% of the world is going to hell and God is mad at everybody....

Edited June 12, 2013 by Guest

[arfink]

Of my atheist friends, many of them state that their reason for refusing to consider Catholicism in particular is that they believe masturbation/porn use/other sexual sins should not be immoral. I have seen this so often, mostly with young men, that for a very long time I imagined that atheism was more about sex than about anything else. It doesn't surprise me that these young men came to their decision to embrace atheism during their teenage years...

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Of my atheist friends, many of them state that their reason for refusing to consider Catholicism in particular is that they believe masturbation/porn use/other sexual sins should not be immoral. I have seen this so often, mostly with young men, that for a very long time I imagined that atheism was more about sex than about anything else. It doesn't surprise me that these young men came to their decision to embrace atheism during their teenage years...

 

Those are stupid reasons for becoming an atheist. 

[arfink]

Those are stupid reasons for becoming an atheist. 

 

I agree. But more common than I would have expected.

[Kia ora]

Of my atheist friends, many of them state that their reason for refusing to consider Catholicism in particular is that they believe masturbation/porn use/other sexual sins should not be immoral. I have seen this so often, mostly with young men, that for a very long time I imagined that atheism was more about sex than about anything else. It doesn't surprise me that these young men came to their decision to embrace atheism during their teenage years...

 

If they were sins, shouldn't we be able to intuitively feel that they were wrong?

 

This may be controversial, but I actually believe that some peope don't feel things as sinful. I have always thought that you should know that what you are doing is a sin for it to be a sin. In fact, the very definition suggests it, an act of the will that goes against God. If you don't know that it goes against God, if there is no knowledge of good and evil, can there be any rebellion?

 

There are non-Catholic, even secular reasons for not watching porn or masturbating. Even as an atheist, I knew that they were harmful for me, mostly because I have an addictive personality. I work towards abstinence currently. But that's not to say that my other friends knew or felt that. I have no idea if they feel bad when they watch porn or have pre-marital sex or the like. In fact i have a feeling that they have a much healthier relationship their own sexuality than I do.

[Socrates]

Looks like an interesting article (even though I didn't read the whole thing).  I think a big problem is that Catholics/Christians today are largely ignorant of their Faith, and have little or no intellectual grounding in their Faith.  The Church has a rich intellectual philosophical tradition of faith and reason, which is not being taught to many young Catholics.  Fr. Barron, in a talk on the "Youtube Heresies," made the point that most young people today don't have any knowledge of philosophy, and thus believe only in "science" - which is itself incapable of answering life's "big questions."  I had the benefit of an orthodox Catholic education in college, which included a solid introduction to philosophy and theology from a Catholic perspective, but many do not learn much beyond a fifth-grade level or so understanding of Catholic doctrine (if that).  If all I learned regarding my Faith was the mix of vague fluffy-bunny "it's nice to be nice" theology and lefty "liberation theology" politics found in my Confirmation CCD text books, I'm not sure that I'd still be a believing Catholic.

 

Anyone with even a modest background of Thomist philosophy will see the utter vapid philosophical shallowness of the pop atheism found on Youtube and such, but if your Christian upbringing doesn't go much beyond intellectually-shallow emotionalism, then I suppose you're prey to whatever bit of third-rate internet sophistry you come across, which is sad.

 

I also find it noteworthy that most atheists I've come across, while endlessly talking about their "rationality," seem extremely emotional and bitter when it regards religious matters, and seem incapable of making a point in a religious debate without resorting to insults, ridicule, or personal attacks.  They seem to have a lot of anger and hate for the God they claim does not exist.

[arfink]

If they were sins, shouldn't we be able to intuitively feel that they were wrong?

 

This may be controversial, but I actually believe that some peope don't feel things as sinful. I have always thought that you should know that what you are doing is a sin for it to be a sin. In fact, the very definition suggests it, an act of the will that goes against God. If you don't know that it goes against God, if there is no knowledge of good and evil, can there be any rebellion?

 

There are non-Catholic, even secular reasons for not watching porn or masturbating. Even as an atheist, I knew that they were harmful for me, mostly because I have an addictive personality. I work towards abstinence currently. But that's not to say that my other friends knew or felt that. I have no idea if they feel bad when they watch porn or have pre-marital sex or the like. In fact i have a feeling that they have a much healthier relationship their own sexuality than I do.

 

OK, let me ask this then: Why does sin have to feel bad?