Apotheoun Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 (edited) Is this an official teaching of their Church(es) or their private opinion? I would say that that is an official teaching, but one needs to see the context to determine precisely what is meant. After all, homosexual desires, that is, if one does not shun them, can be sinful, and of course that is true when it comes to entertaining any disordered thoughts (and not just homosexual desires). Edited June 11, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 As far as I know the Church has never endorsed modern psychology in any doctrinal sense, nor has it invested that modern approach with any doctrinal value. That said, the biblical and patristical tradition would identify homosexual desires as psychically disordered, that is, as a disordered of the soul of man due to the fall of Adam, which is why the homosexual condition is seen as an objective disorder contrary to human nature as God willed it from the beginning in the creation of mankind as male and female. This is true as well. The APA doesn't even recognize homosexuality as a paraphilia anymore. Many other "paraphilias" cannot be diagnosed unless the patient feels some personal distress regarding it. So, it's only a disorder if it makes you feel bad, according to the APA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyAnn Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Never trust a psychologist. I sincerely hope you are joking (and if you are, it's not very funny). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 (edited) The homosexual inclination is intrinsically disordered. That does not mean intrinsically sinful, mind you. Only actions can be sinful. But the attraction itself is disordered, and therefore it is the responsibility of the Catholic affected by it to treat it as such. ETA: And in this context disorder means something different than in the field of psychology. That really should not need to be said. Edited June 11, 2013 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 This is true as well. The APA doesn't even recognize homosexuality as a paraphilia anymore. Many other "paraphilias" cannot be diagnosed unless the patient feels some personal distress regarding it. So, it's only a disorder if it makes you feel bad, according to the APA. Eh, you're not diagnosed with it because it makes you "feel bad" - one of the criteria is significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or "other areas of life" situations (see here). So it's not necessarily that the individual experiences distress because of the paraphilia, but rather the consequences of acting on his disordered urges negatively impacts other areas of his life - which naturally causes distress to the individual (fired from job, divorce, legal issues). [b]A paraphilia is distinguished by a preoccupation with the object or behavior to the point of being dependent on that object or behavior for sexual gratification.[/b] Source here. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 The homosexual inclination is intrinsically disordered. That does not mean intrinsically sinful, mind you. Only actions can be sinful. But the attraction itself is disordered, and therefore it is the responsibility of the Catholic affected by it to treat it as such. ETA: And in this context disorder means something different than in the field of psychology. That really should not need to be said. Disordered inclinations and thoughts focused upon them - if they perdure - can be sinful. So the inclination - if it is allowed to persist or worse if it is turned into an identifying personal characteristic - can be sinful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ithinkjesusiscool Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 If homosexual acts are sinful, does it mean that borderline acts are sinful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Disordered inclinations and thoughts focused upon them - if they perdure - can be sinful. So the inclination - if it is allowed to persist or worse if it is turned into an identifying personal characteristic - can be sinful. In this case should we not be saying that the 'mental action' is willfully entertaining those thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 In this case should we not be saying that the 'mental action' is willfully entertaining those thoughts? It is the disordered thoughts themselves that are sinful and not the entertaining of them in the abstract. Entertaining thoughts in itself is not sinful; instead, it is entertaining evil thoughts that is sinful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 It is the disordered thoughts themselves that are sinful and not the entertaining of them in the abstract. Entertaining thoughts in itself is not sinful; instead, it is entertaining evil thoughts that is sinful. But a thought cannot be sinful unless it is willed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 But a thought cannot be sinful unless it is willed. Although that is the Western take on things, the Eastern Fathers does speak of sins, voluntary and involuntary, and so I don't necessarily agree with the will solely determining the character of an act or thought. That said, in the case I mentioned a fixation on disorder sexual desires, or worse making those disordered desires into a defining personal characteristic, would entail an act of the will - especially in the latter case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Although that is the Western take on things, the Eastern Fathers does speak of sins, voluntary and involuntary, and so I don't necessarily agree with the will solely determining the character of an act or thought. That said, in the case I mentioned a fixation on disorder sexual desires, or worse making those disordered desires into a defining personal characteristic, would entail an act of the will - especially in the latter case. I guess it is my Western perspective, but involuntary sin strikes me as a clear contradiction in terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I guess it is my Western perspective, but involuntary sin strikes me as a clear contradiction in terms. Maybe to you, but not to St. Maximos, St. John Damascene, St. Gregory of Nyssa, et al., and I think I will go with them on the matter. :smile3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Maybe to you, but not to St. Maximos, St. John Damascene, St. Gregory of Nyssa, et al., and I think I will go with them on the matter. :smile3: Do you have any handy resources on that subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Maybe to you, but not to St. Maximos, St. John Damascene, St. Gregory of Nyssa, et al., and I think I will go with them on the matter. :smile3: Do you have any handy resources on that subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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