The Carmelite's Day

[Chiquitunga]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Okay, just letting you know, I have combed more carefully through the Ceremonial (& Constitutions) and couldn't find anything more than what Gracian has posted from them here.

 

7. The Nuns when they meet should incline the head and reverently give the salutation of the Order:  the younger saying, Praised be Jesus Christ!, the other answering, Now and forever.

 

8.  The Nuns in speaking with our Fathers use the title Your Reverence; with the Brothers, Your Charity.  They do the same among themselves, using the first title with the Mothers, and the second with all the rest.  But they should not, in speaking of themselves, say Our Charity, Our Reverence, nor We, but simply, I have done this, I have said that.  They should not call one another simply by the name, but say Mother N. or Sister N.  The Prioress should not be called by her own name but by that of her office, that is, Our Mother Prioress,  or simply Our Mother.  The Sub-prioress also is called by the name of her office; Mother Sub-prioress.  The Novices and the newly professed, as long as they are under the direction of the Mistress, give her the title of Mother and Your Reverence, even though she be only a Sister.  When naming our Father General, the Vicar General, the Procurator General or the Provincial, they say Our Father General, Our Father Vicar General, Our Father Procurator General, or Our Father Provincial.  They say Our Father X fro the Definitors General; these, as well as the ex-Generals and ex-Procurators General, enjoy the title of Our Father during their whole life.

 

I also skimmed through the book on St. Teresa Margaret, as well as A Few Lines to Tell You and My Beloved, and found nothing. 

 

 

The book, "Following the Path of Divine Love" that recently came out about Carmel has been the most detailed book about the life of Carmel and the customs and I have found it very helpful for someone discerning with Carmel or preparing to enter at some time.

 

 

I wonder if perhaps this book would have the answer...  I will be on the look out anyway, and ask around, and let you know if I find anything :detective:

[Teresa Mary]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Okay, just letting you know, I have combed more carefully through the Ceremonial (& Constitutions) and couldn't find anything more than what Gracian has posted from them here.

 

 

I also skimmed through the book on St. Teresa Margaret, as well as A Few Lines to Tell You and My Beloved, and found nothing. 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if perhaps this book would have the answer...  I will be on the look out anyway, and ask around, and let you know if I find anything :detective:

 

Ok.  I hope someone can find something.  If not, I will continue using my imagination (as the story is a novel, anyway :smile3: ) to describe everything.  However, I really wish I could see a copy of the pre-1930's Breviary they must have used.

[truthfinder]

For some reason that I cannot put out of my mind, I've thought that the sister wouldn't say anything, just knock on the door, and the other would respond "Deo gratias" indicating they were to enter - but this is just what my brain has spit out, so take it with a huge chunk of salt.

[Chiquitunga]

That sounds like a very good guess as well :like: It makes sense that the Nun would not speak.

 

I just tried to search that out really quick, and see a Prioress is letting a secular (how non-religious are referred to in their Ceremonial) know she is there in the parlor with a "Deo gratias"  I'm not sure exactly what this is however, fiction/non-fictional, a little of both

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=011FAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=deo+gratias+carmelite+prioress&source=bl&ots=vyT3Bppe5f&sig=rZQKwFUmxp7stPFBIS9239vzk_g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CUY3U-bTGoWzqgGSjIHgCg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=deo%20gratias%20carmelite%20prioress&f=false

[Chiquitunga]

Ok.  I hope someone can find something.  If not, I will continue using my imagination (as the story is a novel, anyway :smile3: ) to describe everything.  However, I really wish I could see a copy of the pre-1930's Breviary they must have used.

 

I've never seen a copy of that breviary myself, which would have been a OCD version of the Roman Breviary. I have seen an O.Carm. one though.

 

Probably if you made something up, no one would have a clue you did. But also, since she's a new postulant, you could have her making a mistake perhaps. :)

 

I've asked a couple people who were in Carmel for a while, so we'll see if they have anything to add. God bless!

[Chiquitunga]

truthfinder, it looks like you are correct! :like: great memory there!! I think this is the closest we will get to an accurate answer.

 

"When we want a sister who is in her cell or office, we must knock at the door; if after knocking twice she does not answer, we must go away without opening the door; but the sister should understand that she is obliged to answer Deo Gratias, and to open the door to see what is required of her."

 

http://www.archives-carmel-lisieux.fr/english/carmel/index.php/au-carmel/le-style-de-vie/textes-de-base/papier-dexaction/12291-le-papier-d-exaction

[truthfinder]

Woot! Knew I had read it somewhere - I'm not going crazy  :bananarap:

[Teresa Mary]

All this information is great; thanks again! :)

[graciandelamadrededios]

I see this topic hasn't been discussed in a while (and I read some of it), but I was wondering if I could get more info to finish this particular chapter in the Carmelite novel I am writing about St. Philomena.....I have looked everywhere I can think of, online and off, and not able to find the answer I am looking for :sos: How does a Sister, who is called to speak to the Prioress in her office, announce her presence at the door ~ and how does the Prioress respond?  I'm anxious to finish this novel so I can send it to the publisher.  Thanks, everyone! :priest:

 

 

 

Customs of the Discalced Carmelite Nuns when a Sister wants to speak to the Mother Prioress:

 

1. The Prioress has her own space or office where she occupies to exercise her duties of superior of the house (apart from her cell) - a custom retained after Vatican II for practical reasons.

 

2.  There is no coded knock used on the door of the office of the Prioress; one just knocks.

 

3.  The greetings are the same when you meet the Mother Prioress on the hallway; greeting her with "Praised be Jesus Christ" and her reply is "Now and forever."  I read on the Book of Exactions that when you meet the Prioress, the first time during the day, the Sister kneels and kiss her (Prioress') Scapular.  Some monasteries might have dropped these practices but may have been retained by some.

 

4. Before Vatican II, Mother Prioress was addressed as "Your Reverence", while the Sister is addressed "Your Charity" - a custom that might still be in effect in some traditional monasteries.  Common way of addressing each other nowadays is by using the word "You" just like in the secular world.

 

5. Customs vary from one monastery to another even before Vatican II, the commonalities perhaps, is that the Customs before Vatican II was more formal.  Nowadays, the customs are geared towards simplicity and informality - the hallmark of Christ ministry.

 

I am still waiting for the reply of other Prioresses and I will share what I found out.

 

 

Sources:  Prioresses of various Discalced Carmelite Monasteries

[graciandelamadrededios]

truthfinder, it looks like you are correct! :like: great memory there!! I think this is the closest we will get to an accurate answer.

 

"When we want a sister who is in her cell or office, we must knock at the door; if after knocking twice she does not answer, we must go away without opening the door; but the sister should understand that she is obliged to answer Deo Gratias, and to open the door to see what is required of her."

 

http://www.archives-carmel-lisieux.fr/english/carmel/index.php/au-carmel/le-style-de-vie/textes-de-base/papier-dexaction/12291-le-papier-d-exaction

 

 

UPDATE: Customs of the Discalced Carmelite Nuns when a Sister wants to speak to the Mother Prioress (from a 1990 Carmel):

 

1. There is always a separate room for the Office of the Mother Prioress

 

2. Just knock at her door and when she replies "Deo Gratias" (Thanks be to God) it means the Sister can enter the room.  This custom is found on the Paper of Exactions translated from French to English in the Lisieux Archives Website.

 

 

 

Hope this help to the lady who is writing a novel about Carmel.

 

I am still waiting for a couple of replies from other monasteries and I will share them as soon as receive the emails.

 

*Teresa Mary, it would be very interesting to read this novel, I read a novel about Carmelites written by Mark Salzman entitled "Lying Awake" and its a very touching book.  It captured by spirit and ministry of Carmel but some of the customs cited were incorrect at least for Carmelites.  I guess he incorporated customs of other religious community to his novels.  Also, it is important to establish the genealogy of this Carmel - is this Carmel of French origin or Spanish?  The habit and customs French and Spanish Carmels have minor differences.  Chiqui and I have long discussions on and off this forum about the French and Spanish Habit as well as the customs.

 

*Thanks Chiqui for sending the correct thread!

Edited May 14, 2014 by graciandelamadrededios