Chiquitunga Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 p.s. but as AnneLine pointed out before, it probably would end up being better to not read them really before entering, but as you go through formation as a postulant, and learn things at their pace and all although... you can read an earlier version of St. Teresa's Constitutions in her works. That would be good to read before entering along with her other writings. I hadn't read much before I entered, and I regret that because I didn't really know St. Teresa or the reasons for the way of life she set up for her daughters and I wanted a different way of life, to my great fault, instead. There really is minimal time for personal/spiritual reading in Carmel, just that block of time in the horarium and then what you learn in formation and the readings at meals, so I think it is best to make good use of one's free time before entering to read through her works. But yeah, as far as seeking out and reading their current Constitutions, they will form you in that :like: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 p.s. but as AnneLine pointed out before, it probably would end up being better to not read them really before entering, but as you go through formation as a postulant, and learn things at their pace and all although... you can read an earlier version of St. Teresa's Constitutions in her works. That would be good to read before entering along with her other writings. I hadn't read much before I entered, and I regret that because I didn't really know St. Teresa or the reasons for the way of life she set up for her daughters and I wanted a different way of life, to my great fault, instead. There really is minimal time for personal/spiritual reading in Carmel, just that block of time in the horarium and then what you learn in formation and the readings at meals, so I think it is best to make good use of one's free time before entering to read through her works. But yeah, as far as seeking out and reading their current Constitutions, they will form you in that :like: Nowadays, there are a lot of documents available online and also available at many religious store about the works of St. Teresa for public consumption. For example: The Constitutions of 1567 is included in Volume III of the Collected Works of St. Teresa. This Constitutions is also known as the "Primitive Constitutions of St. Teresa." Online, There is this website in French and English: http://www.archives-carmel-lisieux.fr/carmel/ which features the 1565 Constitutions of St. Teresa. There is also an ancient Custom Book called Paper of Exaction which were recorded customs of the Spanish Mothers when they introduced the reform in France. St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross entered Carmel after she read the works of St. Teresa and many women entered Carmel after reading the autobiograhy of St. Therese of the Child Jesus. The 1990 Constitution (which is an updated version of the 1581 Constitutions) is similar to the 1567 Constitutions. Mother Anne of Jesus (Lobera) fought hard to preserve the 1581 Constitutions and this is the same text she brought with her to France when she founded the first Carmel of the reform outside Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Thanks! Yes, I agree, it's good to study all of this... :bible: And yes, I found it very interesting to read about how hard several of the nuns who personally knew St. Teresa from the beginning, really fought to keep those 1581 Constitutions, and that is what the 1990s are today (not saying the 1991 Carmels are bad though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) I think the OCD Generalate recently issued an apology to one of the Nuns who were persecuted by Doria. To clear the Nun's name who was a Prioress. I read it somewhere.... Edited July 13, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Huh! I wonder if it was Anne of Jesus... I know she and John of the Cross took the brunt of Doria's rather... well... hum... the Holy Spirit found it useful as it is part of the reason Carmel moved into France and the Low Countries... to get out of his way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 interesting.... probably was Anne of Jesus or Maria of San Jose Salazar maybe. I'm not an expert on all of this though.. hmm :detective: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 Huh! I wonder if it was Anne of Jesus... I know she and John of the Cross took the brunt of Doria's rather... well... hum... the Holy Spirit found it useful as it is part of the reason Carmel moved into France and the Low Countries... to get out of his way! I immediately searched for the book I recently finished reading and I found the following from "The Heirs of St. Teresa of Avila: Defenders and Disseminators of the Founding Mother's Legacy published by ICS in 2006: Maria de San Jose (Salazar): Saint Teresa's "Difficult" Daughter "Maria did not become Teresa's successor, but she did lead an important foundation in Lisbon in 1584. More difficult days were ahead, however. Her close friendship with Gracian drew her into his bitter struggle with his successor, Nicolas Doria. Doria was convinced that the reform was sliding into laxity and wanted to restructure the order's system of governance, placing the nuns firmly under the authority of the friars. Like Gracian, Maria opposed Doria's rigorism, and with Ana de Jesus she led a "nun's rebillion" against Doria's plan to change Teresa's constitutions. In 1593 Doria removed Maria from office and imprisoned her incommunicado for nine months. Ten years later, for reasons that to this day are obscure, Maria was transferred to the isolated convent in Cuerva, where she died on 19 October 1603. Almost four hundred years later, in 1999, the general difinitory of the Discalced Carmelites expressed great regret for the severe punishment that had been imposed on her and on Ana de Jesus. The above chapter is written by Alison Weber. This book is not written by Winifred Nevin but a collection of works of different contemporary authors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) And I did want to mention Gracian... but I thought I'd let his namesake do that. ;) I have a special interest in Anne of Jesus, Gracian, because when I first went into the Secular Order, I was given her name... later it was changed a bit, but I still feel a bit of an affinity with her... although I tend to take Anne Line as my patron (but both are very intrepid women, and a wonderful pair of patronesses... I just never could get any special feeling going for St. Anne Mary's mom (sorry, St. Anne... nothing personal...) A long time ago, one of the former prioresses of the Seattle Carmel (who is now in the Carmel in Heaven, God willing...) told me something funny. I asked her if she ever thought that they would beatify or canonize Ven. Anne of Jesus. And she said, "Nope... she made to many enemies among the Carmelite Fathers!" It's good to see maybe she and Gracian might be re-evaluated... I know there is some movement toward bringing Gracian's cause forward.... Edited July 13, 2013 by AnneLine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 And I did want to mention Gracian... but I thought I'd let his namesake do that. ;) I have a special interest in Anne of Jesus, Gracian, because when I first went into the Secular Order, I was given her name... later it was changed a bit, but I still feel a bit of an affinity with her... although I tend to take Anne Line as my patron (but both are very intrepid women, and a wonderful pair of patronesses... I just never could get any special feeling going for St. Anne Mary's mom (sorry, St. Anne... nothing personal...) A long time ago, one of the former prioresses of the Seattle Carmel (who is now in the Carmel in Heaven, God willing...) told me something funny. I asked her if she ever thought that they would beatify or canonize Ven. Anne of Jesus. And she said, "Nope... she made to many enemies among the Carmelite Fathers!" It's good to see maybe she and Gracian might be re-evaluated... I know there is some movement toward bringing Gracian's cause forward.... I see, I always find Anne of Jesus a very strong woman but she has her faults too. That's probably what Mother Prioress of Seattle Carmel thought. There is actually a faction between Anne of Jesus and Anne of St. Bartholomew and their followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Ah! Thank YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) There is actually a faction between Anne of Jesus and Anne of St. Bartholomew and their followers. Wait, but was there a faction between the two during their lifetimes? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong. I just know Bl. Anne of St. Bartholomew had a sweeter temperament. edit: though I love both equally. I love Ven. Anne of Jesus' toughness, like Holy Mother. Love them both! :saint: Edited July 13, 2013 by Chiquitunga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) Wait, but was there a faction between the two during their lifetimes? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong. I just know Bl. Anne of St. Bartholomew had a sweeter temperament. edit: though I love both equally. I love Ven. Anne of Jesus' toughness, like Holy Mother. Love them both! :saint: Yes, there was. Anne of Jesus objected to giving black veil to Anne of St. Bartholomew since the later is a lay sister and one of their Superior wanted Anne of St. Bartholomew to head a foundation in France as Prioress. Anne of Jesus thought that it would lead to laxity in the observance of the Reform. Also, Anne of St. Bartholomew made some comments against Anne of Jesus about how St. Teresa was unhappy the way Anne of Jesus did things as a Prioress. Anne of Jesus refused to accept an English woman who converted to Catholism as a postulant but Anne of St. Bartholomew accepted the woman. Anne of Jesus bitterly commented that Anne of St. Bartholomew does not know how to make an exception of the Rule or of the Constitutions; while she was a constant companion of Teresa, it was not to help her with business but to assist her dress and write letters. Those can be found in "The Heirs of St. Teresa of Avila: Defenders and Disseminators of the Founding Mother's Legacy published by ICS in 2006 Edited July 13, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Very interesting! Thank you! Nice to have some confirmation that nothing changes.... humans infest cloisters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 Oh, well. Nuns after all, are still human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Scary, isn't it? Of course, we wouldn't want it any other way! Now I gotta go off line for a while and get some stuff done. Have a good day/evening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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