Dating And Discernment: Pros And Cons

[Sister Marie]

Ave Maria! Happy feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel!

Here are two young priests who seem to have made an extensive, multi-part series on discernment, with the following segment specifically on dating.

 

Pre-discernment phase: Dating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pouav-eWQeQ

"St. Ignatius says that if you want to know God's will for your life, you've got to have freedom of heart. If you're in a dating relationship.. your heart is not free.. all these dating thoughts are running through your head."

"The pre-discernment stage is not the time to date. "

"World experience like traveling, working, volunteering, etc. is not the same thing as dating. In dating you begin to give your heart to someone.. now is not the time.. You need to put that on hold for a while."

"Not all experiences are going to help you know God's will. Some are going to draw you away from God's will.. Is this experience going to help me, or cause confusion for me?"

(Father's testimony of dating in college) "When I thought about my future, I thought about it through the lens of marriage, children, job, etc. When we broke up and after I got over that relationship, I finally had the freedom to look seriously at the priesthood, and the desire for the priesthood came out of my heart, because my heart was free.

"The Council of Trent says that the consecrated state is the more perfect state.. Not that they're better people than married people, but that the state itself is more perfect."

"Marriage belongs to the natural world, so everyone has, in some sense, a desire for marriage and familiy, so I don't necessarily need to discern that because it's already built into me, into the human person. What I do need to discern is if God is calling me out of the natural state to the supernatural state of consecration. First you discern consecrated life, and if God is not calling you to it, then and only then can you begin to date and pursue marriage. This way you can keep your heart free until you're sure that God is not calling you to consecrated life."
 
"If I'm dating someone and thinking about consecrated life, it is not fair to them. They are thinking about marriage and kids.. If I put them through this, it is not being their friend, it is not loving them.. The reality is, if you're dating someone, take a break. Tell them you need space, you need time, you need to think."

"If you're not dating someone, don't start. Don't go out flirting, etc., focus on God. You can still have friends and build healthy relationships.. in a modest and prudent way."

"This is why a spiritual director is so important, so they can guide you and advise you if a relationship is getting dangerous."

"One last situation which may be an exception: They've gone through pre-discernment, they've built up a strong prayer life, intellectual formation through reading, etc., frequented Sacraments, visited communitities, etc., and are still unsure - in that case, it may be possible to date, but as an exception."

 

 

This last scenario sounds like what Sr. Marie may have gone through, but note how it is an exception, only to be considered in certain scenarios under careful spiritual direction, otherwise, the general counsel to not date until you are ready to pursue marriage is stricly upheld.

 

Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Our Lady of Mount Carmel, pray for us. Ave Maria!

 

fra John Paul
 

 

I considered not replying to this since you still haven't addressed me even though I've addressed you by name several times in this thread.  Again, I must assume the best- that you aren't really reading all the responses in their entirety and are continuing to post quotes and articles instead.  However, I feel that I need to respond because I don't want my own experience to be misrepresented.

 

I did not go through pre-discernment and I wasn't unsure - I was open.  At the time when I met the man I spoke about earlier, I was open to a vocation to religious life but I was not looking for an answer immediately.  He knew that it was in my mind and heart.  I never led him on and I didn't use him to figure out my vocation.  I also didn't ask anyone if it was alright if I dated him, including a spiritual director.  I had genuine feelings for him, good by their very nature, and I chose to listen to those feelings and express them in a good relationship.  We ended things mutually when both of us were drawn in different directions by God (he in a career move and me in a vocational direction).  I still hear from him occasionally and pray for him often because he was a great communicator of God's love for me in my life and, fundamentally, a spiritual friend.  

 

Without this experience there would be something seriously lacking in me and my personal human formation.  First, the experience of God's love for me that I had through this person.  Second, the ability to care for someone and be attracted to them and still choose to do the will of God (you don't stop being attracted to people when you become a sister!!)  and Third, the ability to be friends and co-workers of the opposite sex without fearing for my vocation.  

 

I don't believe that anyone will ever have my exact experience.  I don't think it is fair though to say that there is one way God will speak to us that is better than all the others.  A life of radical discipleship is an adventure, not a book of rules.  Each of us needs different things and our good and provident God always provides them.  I know a sister who never dated and that was right for her.  It would not have been right for me.

 

Friar, what you quote are articles which are interesting, but they are only opinions of others... the saints who are quoted lived in different times and places and their words cannot be translated into our modern world just the way they are.  Plus, just because they are saints doesn't mean that every word they wrote or spoke was correct until the end of time.  It means that they displayed notable sanctity in their lives which were lived in a particular culture and time.  They were wrong about things sometimes.  It's okay to not walk down the well-trimmed and safe path sometimes (obviously I'm not talking about sinning here but about living fully) and to take a path less traveled or less well-known or less "safe" according to some.

[abrideofChrist]

Ave Maria! Happy feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel!
"The Council of Trent says that the consecrated state is the more perfect state.. Not that they're better people than married people, but that the state itself is more perfect."

"Marriage belongs to the natural world, so everyone has, in some sense, a desire for marriage and familiy, so I don't necessarily need to discern that because it's already built into me, into the human person. What I do need to discern is if God is calling me out of the natural state to the supernatural state of consecration. First you discern consecrated life, and if God is not calling you to it, then and only then can you begin to date and pursue marriage. This way you can keep your heart free until you're sure that God is not calling you to consecrated life."
 

 

With due respect, I totally disagree.  You cannot discern a supernatural vocation without first knowing the natural vocation of marriage.  Further, by only discerning consecrated life, as a man, you'd be leaving both the priesthood and marriage out of the picture.  Not a good idea.  You need to be open to all the vocations open to you, and that includes a healthy dose of dating, interacting with priests/seminarians, and seeing different forms of consecrated life.  A person who is mature has the self knowledge necessary to keep their heart ready to respond to the Lord's call even if they date.  (I would go so far as to say that religious life is far better off without people who enter because they can't survive in the world.)

 

On a related note.  You cannot discern consecrated virginity (as vocation not as a synonym for "consecrated life in general") without knowing what marriage is, because it is preeminently spousal.  If ya don't know what it means to be a bride, and all that Christian marriage entails, ya won't know what it means to be a consecrated virgin.  Dating is an obvious way of getting to understand a spousal vocation better.  Religious life isn't predominantly spousal, so it is its own set up and needs to be considered in its own right as a form of discipleship with different charisms.

Edited July 17, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[emi77]

Coming from a purely logical perspective, rather than one from personal experience, it seems that if we truly see a vocation (whether to consecrated life, religious life or marriage) as the soul being drawn into the participation of Our Lord's self-giving Love, in the Will of the Father and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, then all vocations at their core are the way in which the soul can literally 'live from Love'. (St Therese) In this sense all vocations that are lived in true openness to God through the Sacraments and Prayer, are claimed within Christ's new and fulfilled covenant and can belong only to the 'supernatural' world, where all things lead into and stem from Christ's eternal gift of communion that draws His people into His Bride, the Church. 

 

If this is the starting confession, then it seems to me that even if consecrated life is objectively the most perfect state for earthly souls, this should not, as the article above specifies, imply a hierarchy of perfection between those who live in consecrated or lay forms of life. If I have understood the theology correctly, then consecrated lives are the visible form of the mystical, spousal relationship between Christ and His Church. In such a union all souls, whether they are consecrated or not, belong to the Body of Christ only through the Grace of God (by the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection of Our Lord) who has created the eternal Holy Communion with His Bride, the Church.

 

In practical terms, therefore, all souls have the same 'end' vocation (as does the Church) and it is the Holy Spirit that forms and guides souls into uniting Her heart fully to Christ, through and in spite of the individual soul's circumstances in their life, because 'God works to brings goodness from all things' (St Thomas Aquinas paraphrase). In terms of discernment, if we praying and discerning God's will to the best of our abilities and circumstances at that moment in time, then it is surely our duty to hope in the eternal goodness and mercy of God's grace. Thus whatever circumstances we encounter in our lives are not a delay or obstacle to our ultimate vocation, as God can work all things within His will, but are merely a part of that vocation in terms of our daily walk with Christ. It is not the physical state of life our soul is in that can concern us when we realise that the Father has given us the Gift of His presence and Communion in Christ, in every moment of our lives and works all things to His Glory in those who love Him.

 

Sidenote: (Bl Elizabeth of the Trinity has so much wisdom to share here in terms of seeing Sacraments in ALL things. She epitomises discernment in many ways as she lived her Carmelite vocation in the world and in the cloister, yet I think we can safely say that it was not her acceptance into Carmel that epitomised or validated her vocation- she listened to the songs of Christ's soul and grew in holiness and love of Him throughout the whole course of her short life, not exclusively in Carmel! She also insisted that her vocation was not constrained to the Carmelite life and exhorted married people to participate in this Vocation of Love.)

 

To be bold, I think there is a danger of introducing a hierarchy or even formula of discernment that is a natural result of our human attempt to naturalise and constrain the mysteries of God and His Communion. When we strive to walk with Christ and discern God's will for us throughout our lives, then 'guarding' our hearts becomes foreign language, for love is epitomised, tested and fostered in openness to relationship (be it romantic or platonic, divine or human etc) which presents to us the challenge and joy of loving God and neighbour equally. In all vocations and states of life we are striving to learn a new language of Love- Christ's self-giving Love- which is not 'found' anywhere except through participation in Christ and Love itself. Yes our vocation (consecrated, married etc) is a major part of following God's will for our lives and of primary importance in discerning how we are to follow Christ, but our primary Vocation has no 'moment in time' except at that mysterious point where our Faith unites in Christ's Communion with his Church- this is in the 'moment' ITSELF, (Kierkegaard), which transcends time and is worked in the hidden communion of the Trinity with the soul- hidden even from the consciousness of the soul itself. 

 

If the above is theologically sound, then discernment cannot be reduced to a process of change that occurs in time, but is the whole and entire journey of the soul with Christ. Discernment of vocations, in terms of earthly change, therefore can only be a process that takes place 'in subjectivity' (Kierkegaard again where he says that there is only RELATIONSHIP in the paradox of subjectivity,  which is neither an objective or subjective process, and that cannot be expressed or formulated.)

 

Related to practical advice about dating and 'discerning', I believe the best advice that can be given is for the individual to hold fast to God through regular prayer and reception of the sacraments, most especially Communion and Reconciliation, as it is the fostering of this life of Love in the soul that is the Primary vocation of a Christian in any walk of life- and it is in and through this relationship that any form of life can take roots andflourish in the soul. 

 

I know this is not a direct answer, but I truly believe that none can be given on issues that interact   with such immense mysteries, or at least that they canot be given in generalised advice over the internet. I apologise if this post has caused any offence, which is not intended as I post it only to serve to serve as food for thought rather than any admonition of truth, or a counter of the advice given and personal experiences shared on this thread. I should also add that whilst I have some training in theology I am certainly not a theologian and apologise if the theology I have typed is wrong or confused in any way! Sorry for the mini-essay everyone!

 

-Pax Christi-

[MarysLittleFlower]

I wasted a lot of time "dating" and my heart was indeed divided and it ended up taking many acts of self-denial, because deep down I knew that marriage was not my vocation, yet on a natural level the desire for human companionship was also very strong. It took many years to become free enough to discern my vocation in peace.  Our modern world does not encourage virtuous relationships and it is very difficult for young people to navigate through their own desires while allowing virtue to govern them let alone with the added in your face influence of our pleasure obsessed culture.  This is not just speaking from my own experience but also from what I see and many other young people I have known over the years many of them Catholic.  In most cases the family is no longer the primary influence in young peoples' lives, the media is, so yes I agree with Br. JP, a vocation is best preserved and followed by protecting it and it really helps if parents understand this.  Was it St. Bernard who said that he believed that 1 in 3 people have a vocation to the religious life or priesthood?  I think it's more like 1 in 20,000 now who ultimately end up giving their lives to God.

I see what you mean... I can share a bit of my own experience. I dont know my vocation for sure yet. But there was a time I became interested in dating someone (for marriage, not just for "fun") but this became a huge distraction for me and I felt like my heart was becoming divided and it was very painful. I'm not saying God can't use these experiences or that they can't be more positive, like Sr Marie's. With me, they weren't positive...  I think if a person is seriously considering marriage, or if they feel drawn to marriage as a vocation from God - they can have more peace with dating. If God ever calls me to marriage, even if it would be difficult to make that transition, I suppose that after this 'inner' change, it would be easier to date. But when a person is interiorly focused on giving themselves only to God and then begins to be interested in someone just because it's our culture, or because of our human nature - that causes a lot of pain and the only peace I found was in abandoning the situation. If God ever calls me to it Himself, I woudln't say no, but - I don't want to just make that move on my own.

 

With due respect, I totally disagree.  You cannot discern a supernatural vocation without first knowing the natural vocation of marriage.  Further, by only discerning consecrated life, as a man, you'd be leaving both the priesthood and marriage out of the picture.  Not a good idea.  You need to be open to all the vocations open to you, and that includes a healthy dose of dating, interacting with priests/seminarians, and seeing different forms of consecrated life.  A person who is mature has the self knowledge necessary to keep their heart ready to respond to the Lord's call even if they date.  (I would go so far as to say that religious life is far better off without people who enter because they can't survive in the world.)

 

On a related note.  You cannot discern consecrated virginity (as vocation not as a synonym for "consecrated life in general") without knowing what marriage is, because it is preeminently spousal.  If ya don't know what it means to be a bride, and all that Christian marriage entails, ya won't know what it means to be a consecrated virgin.  Dating is an obvious way of getting to understand a spousal vocation better.  Religious life isn't predominantly spousal, so it is its own set up and needs to be considered in its own right as a form of discipleship with different charisms.

 

I have a question for you, abrideofChrist... what if a person understands what it means to be a bride, but they only want to be Jesus' bride. For example, there were Saints who made a vow of virginity without ever dating, not because they couldn't survive in the world or sought to run away, but because they already knew they just wanted to be His. I think maybe if a person doesn't know at all what they want, they might try different things out and pray, but if a person kind of feels really drawn to something, like being Jesus' bride, it would be so difficult to consider marrying others and dating them.

 

I'm a little confused about how you said that religious life isn't predominantly spousal: could you please elaborate?

[Chiquitunga]

I have a question for you, abrideofChrist... what if a person understands what it means to be a bride, but they only want to be Jesus' bride. For example, there were Saints who made a vow of virginity without ever dating, not because they couldn't survive in the world or sought to run away, but because they already knew they just wanted to be His. I think maybe if a person doesn't know at all what they want, they might try different things out and pray, but if a person kind of feels really drawn to something, like being Jesus' bride, it would be so difficult to consider marrying others and dating them.

 

I'm a little confused about how you said that religious life isn't predominantly spousal: could you please elaborate?

 

She wrote a lot about this here - http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/  It is true that in the Rite of Religious Profession the spousal aspect is not as pronounced as it is in the Rite of Consecration of Virgins. It is true that there is more of a focus on discipleship in the wording of the Rite of Religious Profession. The two vocations are very much intertwined however, and for a long time most female cloistered religious, I believe, also received the Consecration of Virgins.

 

Your question to abrideofChrist I also share, although I think the online debating of this would wear me out, lol so I'd rather not ask it, but accept that people have different opinions. But yes, it is true that many saints made a Vow of Virginity at an early age, like Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity (at age 14) or St. Maravillas de Jesus (at 5 year old!)

[FFI Griswold]

Ave Maria!

 

I must apologize for not being able to respond to everyone's posts, especially Sr. Marie's. As I am reading texts, researching, and listening to sermons, I have found it best to provide counsel directly from Scripture, Church teaching, or the Saints, but since it's hard to find explicitly, I am posting primarily from current ministers of the Church – priests, or religious, or those with a certain degree of credibility. Perhaps after an adequate amount of material is collected, organized, studied, and meditated upon, I will be able to respond in greater detail to your concerns.

 

In the meantime, be assured that you are all in my prayers, especially when I come across psalms and readings from the Divine Office that are particularly inspiring and encouraging for discernment. Not to mention the martyrology and biographies and writings of the Saints.

 

Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Ave Maria!

 

In the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary,

 

fra John Paul

[abrideofChrist]

 But when a person is interiorly focused on giving themselves only to God and then begins to be interested in someone just because it's our culture, or because of our human nature - that causes a lot of pain and the only peace I found was in abandoning the situation. If God ever calls me to it Himself, I woudln't say no, but - I don't want to just make that move on my own.

 

 

I have a question for you, abrideofChrist... what if a person understands what it means to be a bride, but they only want to be Jesus' bride. For example, there were Saints who made a vow of virginity without ever dating, not because they couldn't survive in the world or sought to run away, but because they already knew they just wanted to be His. I think maybe if a person doesn't know at all what they want, they might try different things out and pray, but if a person kind of feels really drawn to something, like being Jesus' bride, it would be so difficult to consider marrying others and dating them.

 

I'm a little confused about how you said that religious life isn't predominantly spousal: could you please elaborate?

 

Hi MarysLittleFlower,

 

The general question I would have is where did that interior focus come from to begin with?  A lot of people I have encountered dismiss marriage with disdain and only focus on giving themselves only to God because they feel that is the better thing to do.  For example, I was talking to a woman and her daughter about how many children of divorced parents need counseling and healing before they are able to join religious life.  Unbeknownst to me, the mother was divorced and remarried (she was getting an annulment and was living chastely with her civil law spouse).  The daughter absolutely had her heart set on joining the Norbertine canonessses.  She clothed it in the words that religious life was superior and so on and so forth and how she wanted to serve God... but I doubted her "vocation" because she refused to date because she felt that man only betrays and is unreliable.  She was considering a lovely community, had a lovely reason, was a lovely young woman, but she was very wounded and needed healing because she was not free to make that choice in a healthy way. 

 

As for your question, I would simply say that to some, God gives an extraordinary grace either a very strong general inclination towards a vocation, or even a more specific one (like some of the saints who were told which order to join).  Most of us cannot count on this grace and must live the way He designed us, which is to be schooled in prudence so that when the time comes, we may use our heads and grace to discern what is likely to be God's will.  In an age where things are increasingly unnatural and broken by sin, I believe it takes a lot more for a person to reach maturity to the point they are able to make the same vocational decisions a younger person in a more wholesome and Christian society may have been able to make more easily and confidently.  If you see very happy couples with healthy families, it is easier to comprehend what it is you are giving up for Christ in a religious vocation.  If you are the child of a blended family and both parents have remarried four times, you may not exactly have a good grasp of what Christ intended for marriage.

 

Religious life is not predominantly spousal, and I discussed it, as another person has pointed out, in another thread.  The only vocation in consecrated life that is described in spousal terms is consecrated virginity.  Certainly, religious life reflects the Church's nature more in a religious than in a lay person or a cleric, but the fullness of being a bride belongs to the consecrated virgin whether she receives the consecration to a life of virginity as a cloistered nun in select orders or living in the world.  The essence of being a religious is to embrace a life of discipleship with a well defined charism and the utilization of means (vows/counsels) to an end (holiness).  The essence of being a consecrated virgin is being a virgin, bride, and mother, who is dedicated to the service of the Church.  Because religious life is not strictly bridal, it is open to men.  Because consecrated virginity is strictly bridal, it is only open to women.

[Sister Marie]

Religious life is not predominantly spousal, and I discussed it, as another person has pointed out, in another thread.  The only vocation in consecrated life that is described in spousal terms is consecrated virginity.  Certainly, religious life reflects the Church's nature more in a religious than in a lay person or a cleric, but the fullness of being a bride belongs to the consecrated virgin whether she receives the consecration to a life of virginity as a cloistered nun in select orders or living in the world.  The essence of being a religious is to embrace a life of discipleship with a well defined charism and the utilization of means (vows/counsels) to an end (holiness).  The essence of being a consecrated virgin is being a virgin, bride, and mother, who is dedicated to the service of the Church.  Because religious life is not strictly bridal, it is open to men.  Because consecrated virginity is strictly bridal, it is only open to women.

 

I don't want to get into this theologically but I agree with what you are saying here abrideofchrist.  I definitely experience the whole of my religious life more as a radical discipleship than a bridal relationship (in fact, I really don't personally care for the bridal imagery some religious use, but that is just a personal preference).  The vows are not marriage vows but are made to conform ourselves more totally to the way Jesus lived; in poverty, chastity, and obedience, and, for those of us in an apostolate, to free us for active service to our brothers and sisters.  My relationship with Jesus is certainly one of love and intimacy, which could have some spousal elements to it, but is more about the desire to be more conformed to Jesus as the Son of God.   

[MarysLittleFlower]

She wrote a lot about this here - http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/  It is true that in the Rite of Religious Profession the spousal aspect is not as pronounced as it is in the Rite of Consecration of Virgins. It is true that there is more of a focus on discipleship in the wording of the Rite of Religious Profession. The two vocations are very much intertwined however, and for a long time most female cloistered religious, I believe, also received the Consecration of Virgins.

 

Your question to abrideofChrist I also share, although I think the online debating of this would wear me out, lol so I'd rather not ask it, but accept that people have different opinions. But yes, it is true that many saints made a Vow of Virginity at an early age, like Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity (at age 14) or St. Maravillas de Jesus (at 5 year old!)

I see! thanks :) I think I remember that conversation... 

 

 

Ave Maria!

 

I must apologize for not being able to respond to everyone's posts, especially Sr. Marie's. As I am reading texts, researching, and listening to sermons, I have found it best to provide counsel directly from Scripture, Church teaching, or the Saints, but since it's hard to find explicitly, I am posting primarily from current ministers of the Church – priests, or religious, or those with a certain degree of credibility. Perhaps after an adequate amount of material is collected, organized, studied, and meditated upon, I will be able to respond in greater detail to your concerns.

 

In the meantime, be assured that you are all in my prayers, especially when I come across psalms and readings from the Divine Office that are particularly inspiring and encouraging for discernment. Not to mention the martyrology and biographies and writings of the Saints.

 

Mary, Mother of Vocations, pray for us. Ave Maria!

 

In the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary,

 

fra John Paul

 

 

Thank you Fra John Paul :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hi MarysLittleFlower,

 

The general question I would have is where did that interior focus come from to begin with?  A lot of people I have encountered dismiss marriage with disdain and only focus on giving themselves only to God because they feel that is the better thing to do.  For example, I was talking to a woman and her daughter about how many children of divorced parents need counseling and healing before they are able to join religious life.  Unbeknownst to me, the mother was divorced and remarried (she was getting an annulment and was living chastely with her civil law spouse).  The daughter absolutely had her heart set on joining the Norbertine canonessses.  She clothed it in the words that religious life was superior and so on and so forth and how she wanted to serve God... but I doubted her "vocation" because she refused to date because she felt that man only betrays and is unreliable.  She was considering a lovely community, had a lovely reason, was a lovely young woman, but she was very wounded and needed healing because she was not free to make that choice in a healthy way. 

 

As for your question, I would simply say that to some, God gives an extraordinary grace either a very strong general inclination towards a vocation, or even a more specific one (like some of the saints who were told which order to join).  Most of us cannot count on this grace and must live the way He designed us, which is to be schooled in prudence so that when the time comes, we may use our heads and grace to discern what is likely to be God's will.  In an age where things are increasingly unnatural and broken by sin, I believe it takes a lot more for a person to reach maturity to the point they are able to make the same vocational decisions a younger person in a more wholesome and Christian society may have been able to make more easily and confidently.  If you see very happy couples with healthy families, it is easier to comprehend what it is you are giving up for Christ in a religious vocation.  If you are the child of a blended family and both parents have remarried four times, you may not exactly have a good grasp of what Christ intended for marriage.

 

Religious life is not predominantly spousal, and I discussed it, as another person has pointed out, in another thread.  The only vocation in consecrated life that is described in spousal terms is consecrated virginity.  Certainly, religious life reflects the Church's nature more in a religious than in a lay person or a cleric, but the fullness of being a bride belongs to the consecrated virgin whether she receives the consecration to a life of virginity as a cloistered nun in select orders or living in the world.  The essence of being a religious is to embrace a life of discipleship with a well defined charism and the utilization of means (vows/counsels) to an end (holiness).  The essence of being a consecrated virgin is being a virgin, bride, and mother, who is dedicated to the service of the Church.  Because religious life is not strictly bridal, it is open to men.  Because consecrated virginity is strictly bridal, it is only open to women.

Thanks for the reply to my question! :) I see what you are saying about someone wanting to enter a convent because of feeling wounded from something that happened to them. hmm I wasn't really thinking of that point. I also agree that some receive a grace to know their vocation from an early age or for certain, and most need to go through the discernment process and it could be difficult.

 

Of course, we don't always know our own hidden motives. I sometimes wonder about the motives for me discerning religious life. I don't think it's because I fear commitment though: the commitment aspect is the one that really draws me to it. I also don't see men in a negative way, I have very good guy friends and I have a good relationship with my dad. (and even though my family is not Catholic, I've seen very strong Catholic families). I think (and hope..) the reason I'm drawn to religious life is not because I feel something negative about men and families and want to distance myself from that, but for another reason. The difficulty perhaps comes from wondering if one's reason is good, but thankfully the Church discerns too so we're not on our own :)

 

What if a person feels drawn to being a bride of Christ because she loves Him and wants to only belong to Him exclusively, so that there is no one else, not because human marriage is bad, but because she wants only Him to ever have her heart? I mean like a positive thing, not a negative thing... and because she wants this sort of love where she can give herself fully and only to Him, - with creatures we can't give ourselves completely in a way because our souls belong to God and because we can only worship God. With Jesus, we can worship Him and adore Him and our souls are His, and if He is also the Spouse, (which is an incredible idea actually) - there's kind of a totality in that kind of love. I don't know... it's like if a person wants sort of what we'll have in Heaven (the union of God with a soul) but to start it here on earth. I heard that there are two understandings of being a bride of Christ: one is through the consecration, and another is found in the contemplative life (the seventh mansion described by St Teresa of Avila). A person can be the just the first, or just the second, or both - on this earth. (if I understand correctly).

 

I think I remember the discussion about the difference between religious life and consecrated virginity. Unfortunately I have a very poor memory for these things. Am I remembering correctly that contemplative religious do sometimes have a consecration of virginity as well, or could also be considered to have a more spousal approach to the vocation? (I mean nuns rather than Sisters, who are active or active contemplative). Chiquitunga mentioned how in the past many nuns had this consecration as well, I don't remember if now it's like this or not? I remember asking how it is in the communities with the Latin Mass but I don't remember the answer :o

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't want to get into this theologically but I agree with what you are saying here abrideofchrist.  I definitely experience the whole of my religious life more as a radical discipleship than a bridal relationship (in fact, I really don't personally care for the bridal imagery some religious use, but that is just a personal preference).  The vows are not marriage vows but are made to conform ourselves more totally to the way Jesus lived; in poverty, chastity, and obedience, and, for those of us in an apostolate, to free us for active service to our brothers and sisters.  My relationship with Jesus is certainly one of love and intimacy, which could have some spousal elements to it, but is more about the desire to be more conformed to Jesus as the Son of God.   

 

Thanks for sharing what it's like for you, Sr Marie :) I'm drawn to the bridal imagery (though to what you said as well) but I don't know my vocation yet. I see people have a different emphasis and then different orders also emphasize different things (like how Franciscans and Carmelites have different charisms) and I guess one's vocation is where this would fit, perhaps.

Edited July 18, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Sister Marie]

That's absolutely it Maryslittleflower... I think my relationship with Christ is very deep but if I ask myself what word best describes it, bride and spouse do not come to mind first.  I'm one of his companions and I love that... it is about finding where your personal journey with Him is nourished and challenged and gives you life.

[Chiquitunga]

Just thought I would answer this from the dating thread here instead.

 

I think I remember the discussion about the difference between religious life and consecrated virginity. Unfortunately I have a very poor memory for these things. Am I remembering correctly that contemplative religious do sometimes have a consecration of virginity as well, or could also be considered to have a more spousal approach to the vocation? (I mean nuns rather than Sisters, who are active or active contemplative). Chiquitunga mentioned how in the past many nuns had this consecration as well, I don't remember if now it's like this or not? I remember asking how it is in the communities with the Latin Mass but I don't remember the answer :o

 

Yes, it is true that in the past many cloistered religious received the Rite of Consecration of Virgins. And after it fell into disuse during a certain period (I am not sure exactly when) it was again encouraged for cloistered religious in the Apostolic Constitution Sponsa Christi in 1950 (not available online in English) It says so here in A Few Lines to Tell You (written by Iron Mountain Carmel in 1957) and it also goes on to describe how this Rite was received in Carmel, which was done simultaneously with the Veiling. In the OCD Nuns' Manual (different book from the Ceremonial) from 1932 there are two different ceremonies for Solemn Profession and Veiling (receiving the black veil) and it says the Veiling can be done at the time of Solemn Profession or some other day chosen by the community.

 

As a side note, in the Veiling ceremony from 1932 it does have the Celebrant (which is normally a bishop) addressing the newly professed Nun "Veni Sponsa Christi"

 

However, now for some reason this practice of female cloistered religious receiving the Rite of Consecration of Virgins has fallen into disuse by the majority of the Orders, including Discalced Carmelite Nuns, except perhaps some/one in Spain, which abrideofChrist made reference to earlier in this thread, though they may be O.Carm.

 

All of the Solemn Profession booklets I have from various Carmels are titled "Solemn Profession and Veiling" including one from Valparaiso. I am certain they do not receive the Rite of Consecration of Virgins, to answer your question about communities with the Traditional Latin Mass. Really in modern times, it was only during a short period (maybe 20 years) after Sponsa Christi in 1950 that they were doing it again.

 

The only communities that come to mind that do still receive it today are ~ St Cecilia’s Abbey, Ryde ~ Regina Laudis & Carthusian Nuns. Mostly likely there must be a few others out there that I have never heard of, and again there is that Carmel/s in Spain that abrideofChrist mentioned earlier. But I do not know of a community that receives it that also uses the 1962 Liturgy exclusively.

 

In answer to the second part I bolded in your post, yes, it is true that female cloistered contemplative religious do have a more spousal approach to their vocation, which is why it really makes sense that they receive the Consecration of Virgins. In Verbi Sponsa [Spouse of the Word] Instruction on the Contemplative Life and on the Enclosure of Nuns the language used to describe their vocation is indeed very spousal. 

[Chiquitunga]

oops! I totally meant to post all of the above in the old Bride of Christ thread! I am going to do so now, as I think it is better to carry on discussion of that over there then in this thread.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks for the information! :) Sure, we can move the discussion to that thread :) good idea.