Carmelite Customs

[graciandelamadrededios]

Thanks Anneline!

 

Here's more:

 

Here is what I read from the book "Journey to Carith: The Sources and Story of the Discalced Carmelites" by Peter-Thomas Rohrback, OCD:

 

"The mantle presents an even more picturesque history.  The original mantle was composed of seven wide vertical stripes, four white and three black.  The image these religious presented in their long striped mantles was so bizarre when they appeared in the West that the Europeans, in their medieval penchant for Latin sobriquets, called the Carmelites fratres barrati (the barred brothers) or fratres virgulati (the stripped brothers).  The unusual costume worn by Carmelites was one the contributing factors to their lack of acceptance in Europe, and thus the chapter of Montpellier in 1287 the color of the mantle was changed to a solid white wool.  Some of the medieval chroniclers of the Order claim that the reason for the striped cloak was to commemorate the marks produced by the flames of the fiery chariot when Elijah threw his mantle on Elisha, but his is a pietistic viewpoint.  The true significance of the stripes was that it constituted the typical mode of dress in the East, and as such was merely the custom of the country.  During the sixteenth century a number of Carmelites carried staffs in their hands, in imitation of the staffs carried by the ancient nabis, but the practice was soon abandoned."

 

 

Edited July 13, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[AnneLine]

I was thinking of exactly that quote, Gratian, but was too lazy to walk across the room for my copy of Journey to Carith!  :paperbag:

[Chiquitunga]

Really interesting! Thanks for sharing that picture, AnneLine! I have never seen it before nor any other with their mantles like that.

 

Perhaps it was a local custom in Chiqui's Carmel and/or for bridal dresses and it's not related to Elijah's mantle at all. Gracian, that would be wonderful if you could ask them since you've already been in contact with them (& they sent you all that stuff on Chiquitunga) but no rush or anything. :like:

[Chiquitunga]

Thanks for sharing that Gracian! I have got to get a copy of that book! Okay, so Chiqui's little sash had 5 black stripes, though there's still chance there's some connection... Best to ask them directly :detective:

[AnneLine]

Something else to keep in mind -- that's a B&W photo (or sepiatone, technically) of your namesake, Chiqui. 

 

So it could be ANY color other than white or black. 

 

Might be blue for our Lady?  Or gold?  Or something else?  

 

Would be interesting to know..

[graciandelamadrededios]

Thanks for sharing that Gracian! I have got to get a copy of that book! Okay, so Chiqui's little sash had 5 black stripes, though there's still chance there's some connection... Best to ask them directly :detective:

 

Oh Chiqui!

 

I thought you already have a copy of "Journey to Carith."  Well, you must get one immediately and I promise you its an interesting book and you will learn a lot from it.

 

I got mine ages ago and from time to time, I still browse them.

 

Convince her, Anneline!

 

 

Gracian

[graciandelamadrededios]

I was thinking of exactly that quote, Gratian, but was too lazy to walk across the room for my copy of Journey to Carith!  :paperbag:

 

I actually just copy and pasted them!

 

Those were my reply to yahoo group when they asked some questions about Carmelites and its history.

 

Also, the striped mantle was mentioned extensively in the book "The Carmelites" by Joachim Smets, O. Carm.

 

 

Gracian

[AnneLine]

It is a VERY well-written book, Chiqui, and well worth the investment.

 

The author, Peter-Thomas Rohrbach, did leave the Order after it was published, but it still is the best available history of the Discalced Carmelite reform available in English.  There is a new introduction to the reprint that was issued just a few years back (and is available from ICS, the Institute of Carmelite Studies.  It corrects a few incorrect things and clarifies a few others.  But other than that, they made the choice to just re-issue it without any other changes, because the research was solid.  It is also a good period piece because it was written and published just before Vatican II, so it is a pretty good picture of how stuff was before the Council.

 

There are also a couple of interesting books available as ebooks... free!!!!! detailing the history of Carmel in England and Ireland, specifically.... published just before the start of the 20th Century.  Can include links if there is any interest.  If you don't know the story of the Carmelites during the Penal Period (when it was illegal to be Catholic, much less Carmelite!) it is well worth reading.  Language is flowery and 'dated' -- but fascinating....

 

The Western Province of the Discalced Carmelite friars was a mission territory of the Anglo-Irish province until 1980, so we definitely get interested in that history out here... it's about our spiritual grandparents!!!!!

[graciandelamadrededios]

It is a VERY well-written book, Chiqui, and well worth the investment.

 

The author, Peter-Thomas Rohrbach, did leave the Order after it was published, but it still is the best available history of the Discalced Carmelite reform available in English.  There is a new introduction to the reprint that was issued just a few years back (and is available from ICS, the Institute of Carmelite Studies.  It corrects a few incorrect things and clarifies a few others.  But other than that, they made the choice to just re-issue it without any other changes, because the research was solid.  It is also a good period piece because it was written and published just before Vatican II, so it is a pretty good picture of how stuff was before the Council.

 

There are also a couple of interesting books available as ebooks... free!!!!! detailing the history of Carmel in England and Ireland, specifically.... published just before the start of the 20th Century.  Can include links if there is any interest.  If you don't know the story of the Carmelites during the Penal Period (when it was illegal to be Catholic, much less Carmelite!) it is well worth reading.  Language is flowery and 'dated' -- but fascinating....

 

The Western Province of the Discalced Carmelite friars was a mission territory of the Anglo-Irish province until 1980, so we definitely get interested in that history out here... it's about our spiritual grandparents!!!!!

 

Please post the links, Anneline.

 

Thanks much!

[graciandelamadrededios]

By the way, those interested to get an online copy of the book "Book for the Hour of Recreation" written by Mother Maria de San Jose (Salazar) translated by Amanda Powell.  Please PM me.

[Chiquitunga]

I'm ordering it ASAP! :smile4: & yes, AnneLine please do post those links on Carmelite history in England & Ireland. I have visited some of the Irish Carmels, as I was PMing you about. I find it very interesting they are not direct descendants from Carmels in Europe via England, which I assumed before Gracian shared with me an excerpt from Journey to Carith.

 

I want to learn more about all of the English martyrs too, like St. Anne Line. I have a friend who has a huge love for them and enthusiastically shares with me their stories. How they suffered for Christ and His Church!!

 

Where did Fr. Peter-Thomas Rohrbach go? I have read his book on Mental Prayer, Conversation with Christ. 

[graciandelamadrededios]

I'm ordering it ASAP! :smile4: & yes, AnneLine please do post those links on Carmelite history in England & Ireland. I have visited some of the Irish Carmels, as I was PMing you about. I find it very interesting they are not direct descendants from Carmels in Europe via England, which I assumed before Gracian shared with me an excerpt from Journey to Carith.

 

I want to learn more about all of the English martyrs too, like St. Anne Line. I have a friend who has a huge love for them and enthusiastically shares with me their stories. How they suffered for Christ and His Church!!

 

Where did Fr. Peter-Thomas Rohrbach go? I have read his book on Mental Prayer, Conversation with Christ. 

 

Yes, I did Chiqui but some Carmels in Ireland probably came from England or Europe.

Edited July 13, 2013 by graciandelamadrededios

[Chiquitunga]

By the way, those interested to get an online copy of the book "Book for the Hour of Recreation" written by Mother Maria de San Jose (Salazar) translated by Amanda Powell.  Please PM me.

 

I bought that book years ago, http://www.amazon.com/Recreation-Other-Voice-Modern-Europe/dp/0226734552/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373754123&sr=1-1&keywords=book+for+the+hour+of+recreation+carmelite  but never got past the introduction, though I intend too. But the introduction in this version is just terrible!! It was part of a series of books on early women writers from an extremely feminist point of view. I am sure Sr. Maria de San Jose would be/is most displeased with that. Still I'm looking forward to reading what she actually wrote, which I skimmed through some of..

Edited July 13, 2013 by Chiquitunga

[AnneLine]

Happy to share my ebookcase!

 

Carmel in England

http://books.google.com/books/about/Carmel_in_England.html?id=H3mcO0LePw4C

 

Carmel in Ireland

http://books.google.com/books/about/Carmel_in_Ireland.html?id=8bv1IQAACAAJ

 

And... just found a new one!

 

An English Carmelite (Life of Catherine Burton, Mother Mary Xaveria of the Angels of the English Carmel of Antwerp

http://ebooks.cambridge.org/ebook.jsf?bid=CBO9780511705946

 

[graciandelamadrededios]

I bought that book years ago, http://www.amazon.com/Recreation-Other-Voice-Modern-Europe/dp/0226734552/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373754123&sr=1-1&keywords=book+for+the+hour+of+recreation+carmelite  but never got past the introduction, though I intend too. But the introduction in this version is just terrible!! It was part of a series of books on early women writers from an extremely feminist point of view. Really wacky! I am sure Sr. Maria de San Jose would be/is most displeased with that. Still I'm looking forward to reading what she actually wrote, which I skimmed through some of..

 

Trust me, I did not read all of the Intro though there are some historical facts that are actually fascinating, that is if you skip the feminist parts.