Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Extern Sisters before Vat II were third order sisters. Now, choir and extern sisters are of equal footing, though externs have separate statutes as per Carmelite Monasteries. Do you have any information on these separate statues for Discalced Carmelite Extern Sisters? Do you know around when they were published? Sorry, more research projects for us! :) I'm not discerning this myself, but it's something I wanted to understand. Also, do you know in all Discalced Carmelite monasteries today, do the Externs not profess Solemn Vows since they are not strictly living under Papal Enclosure? Does it depend on the monastery if they do? I heard this once from someone, but that may be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 another specific question to throw at you :proud: then before VII were there a unique Third Order OCD Extern Sister statues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 okay, I just noticed a folder in the Indianapolis Carmel archives at the University of Notre Dame library for "Extern Sisters - Statues 1992" http://archives.nd.edu/findaids/ead/index/CRM008.HTM I don't know if these archives are available for the general public to read though, like if one were to visit there. interesting to see the titles of their archives there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 I would assume that each monastery can formulate a statues or regulation for their respective externs since some monasteries since technically they are Third Order Regular due to their exclaustrated status and that they are not oblige to recite the Divine Office. This was carried over after VatII except that they are now full members of the Second Order and follows some points of the same constitutions but with their own statutes to cover the aspect of their outside apostolate. I have not seen a document of OCD extern sisters befoelre and after VatII but this was mentioned by several prioresses. One American Prioress told me that she patterned their statutes for their Carmel to those of statutes produced by Philippine Carmels. Also, OSC has their pre vat 2 statutes online, https://archive.org/details/regulationsforus00poor. Regarding the vows, I have no idea if they profess solemn vows now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Thanks Gracian! That is very interesting to learn about. I also just found this page which mentions them having statues from 2002, http://www.carmelites.org.nz/becoming-carmelite/externsisters/ Do you know were Lay Sisters considered Third Order before VII as well? As we know, Lay Sisters for OCD nuns' monasteries went back to their very beginning at the first foundation of St. Teresa. These two vocations seem to be very similar except that Lay Sisters would not go out of the enclosure, while Externs can. Am I correct in that? But now the Lay Sister vocation for OCD nuns does not exist, while the Extern vocation does. It seems like if someone was an Extern in Carmel now, they might relate in a special way to the saints who were OCD Lay Sisters like Blessed Anne of St. Bartholomew or Blessed Mary of Jesus Crucifed (although both eventually choir nuns when they became Foundresses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Also, OSC has their pre vat 2 statutes online, https://archive.org/details/regulationsforus00poor. Really neat to see this! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Thanks Gracian! That is very interesting to learn about. I also just found this page which mentions them having statues from 2002, http://www.carmelites.org.nz/becoming-carmelite/externsisters/ Do you know were Lay Sisters considered Third Order before VII as well? As we know, Lay Sisters for OCD nuns' monasteries went back to their very beginning at the first foundation of St. Teresa. These two vocations seem to be very similar except that Lay Sisters would not go out of the enclosure, while Externs can. Am I correct in that? But now the Lay Sister vocation for OCD nuns does not exist, while the Extern vocation does. It seems like if someone was an Extern in Carmel now, they might relate in a special way to the saints who were OCD Lay Sisters like Blessed Anne of St. Bartholomew or Blessed Mary of Jesus Crucifed (although both eventually choir nuns when they became Foundresses). also not to forget Blessed Marie of the Incarnation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_of_the_Incarnation_(Carmelite) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 OCD Lay Sisters are part of the Order and their part is included in the Constitutions before Vat2. St. Teresa did not have lay sisters on the original 13 nuns but she has to consider rural born women who wants to join the reform but were not equip to read latin, so she allowed them to enter as lay sisters. According to wiki lay sisters also served as externs and this has been written by St. Denis in the 9th centuery. Though I have not heard of lays sisters in Carmel served as extern. In new foundation though, anyone can be sent outside as long as theres permission drom their superiors. Statutes unlike constitutions can be periodically updated to suit the needs of the community. Also, Vat2 asked that lay sisters or brothers be abolished and they were asked to take the status aa choir sisters or brothers with the excemption of the Carthusian Orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) OCD Lay Sisters are part of the Order and their part is included in the Constitutions before Vat2. oh yeah. okay, so you mean part of the Second Order, right? sorry I'm asking so many specific questions, I just want to clearly understand this :like: I'm glad Extern Sisters are now part of the Second Order as well. I believe with this change, the Externs began wearing the full habit that the cloistered nuns wear, is this correct? Because all the preVII black and white pictures I have seen of Extern Sisters in Carmel has them in a different more simple habit like this one from Philadelphia, http://discalcedcarmelitesphila.org/topics/history/people/sr-teresita/ I have seen many pictures from different US Carmels before VII with a habit like this. Edited July 5, 2014 by Chiquitunga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 Lay Sisters were members of the Second Order at least for Carmels. I read somewhere that.Domican Nuns after Vat2 petitiones Rome to incorporate externs into the Second Order. Same were done by other Orders who still maintains extern sisters. The photo you shared is the standard habit of extern sisters in Carmels of St. Teresa. I saw the same habit from photos of Carmelite Externs in the Philippines before Vatican 2. Since they are now full members of the Order, they are allowed to wear the same habit as choir nuns, however, they are free to wear the modified habit as shown in one of the Carmels in NZ. Externs in Baguio Carmel wears modified habit while Externs in Manila Carmel wears the full traditional habit though they dont tuck the day veil under the scapular. One extern sister in Manila Carmel wears white veil sometimes though previously I saw her wear the black veil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 St. Teresa did not have lay sisters on the original 13 nuns but she has to consider rural born women who wants to join the reform but were not equip to read latin, so she allowed them to enter as lay sisters. ah okay, you're right. Blessed Anne of St. Bartholomew was the first OCD Lay Sister and entered San Jose in Avila in 1570 - http://www.thecarmel.ca/saint_anne.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 Yes, she was the very first lay sister and Mother Anne of Jesus objected to her promotion as a choir nun. Thus, the faction of two Annes started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) a page on Loretto Carmel's site about their Externs, http://lorettocarmel.org/content/extern-sisters-guardians-enclosure Okay, that makes sense that since now they are full members of the Second Order, they would wear the same full habit. So with this change OCD Extern Sisters became even closer to the previous OCD Lay Sisters, with them both being a different type (different from the Nuns I mean) of Second Order OCD religious, and in full habit, depending on the monastery of course (one difference though being that Lay Sisters always kept the white veil, while Extern Sisters seem to usually have black veils now, from all the professed Externs I have met, though this seems to depend on the particular monastery from what you said of a Manila Carmel Extern in a white veil) Edited July 5, 2014 by Chiquitunga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiquitunga Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 actually I remember now at one US Carmel that they had an Extern wearing a black veil before her Final Profession, differing from the Nuns only receiving the black veil at Solemn Profession. I am sure of this. so yeah, it seems to depend a lot on the specific monastery. I will email you which Carmel this was :like: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 They share differences with the lay sisters? Yes, they do even until now but only geographically. I shall share with you the story of a saintly Filipina Extern, Sr. Lautentia of Manila Carmel. She was very famous and she was referred to as the Queen Beggar of Carmel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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