Seattle Carmel

[ChristinaTherese]

So, I've been there a couple of times lately, just because it happens to be nearby. I was wondering if any of you knew anything about it?

 

Their daily Masses are... interesting. They took (and I have only been there for a daily Mass once) the Psalms from Morning Prayer, then the Liturgy of the Word (skipping the introductory stuff to the Mass, including the penitential act), the Liturgy of the Eucharist, then the canticle from Morning Prayer, then ended with the normal end to Mass. I mean, this is probably better than other abuses that I've seen, but it's still annoying and (I think) liturgical abuse.

 

Does anyone else know more about them?

[AccountDeleted]

So, I've been there a couple of times lately, just because it happens to be nearby. I was wondering if any of you knew anything about it?

 

Their daily Masses are... interesting. They took (and I have only been there for a daily Mass once) the Psalms from Morning Prayer, then the Liturgy of the Word (skipping the introductory stuff to the Mass, including the penitential act), the Liturgy of the Eucharist, then the canticle from Morning Prayer, then ended with the normal end to Mass. I mean, this is probably better than other abuses that I've seen, but it's still annoying and (I think) liturgical abuse.

 

Does anyone else know more about them?

 

 

This is not a liturgical abuse, but sounds like a combination of morning Prayer and the Mass which may be done to accommodate a schedule where the priest wants to participate in the Divine Office as well. It is liturgically valid and the priest often takes the role of hebdomarian (starting and ending the Office) as well as the celebrant of the Mass.

 

At Wolverhampton, they used to combine Evening Prayer and the Mass because their chaplain could not do a morning Mass (he was also chaplain to some schools and had other commitments) and he wanted to participate in Vespers as well. Therefore they took parts of the EP (Vespers) and parts of the Mass and combined them into one (according to the approved rubrics given) so they would still have time for mental prayer following this. It became cumbersome for them when some of the elderly nuns got confused and lost their place during the service, so they then decided to start with a separate Mass first, followed by regular Vespers, and then do mental prayer. It took longer to do this way, but it was easier for everyone to follow.

 

As for Seattle Carmel - I have never been there, but every communication I have had with them via email has been pleasant and helpful and I nearly went to visit them before coming to the UK, but ran out of time. I think they are worth checking out.

[ChristinaTherese]

This is not a liturgical abuse, but sounds like a combination of morning Prayer and the Mass which may be done to accommodate a schedule where the priest wants to participate in the Divine Office as well. It is liturgically valid and the priest often takes the role of hebdomarian (starting and ending the Office) as well as the celebrant of the Mass.

 

At Wolverhampton, they used to combine Evening Prayer and the Mass because their chaplain could not do a morning Mass (he was also chaplain to some schools and had other commitments) and he wanted to participate in Vespers as well. Therefore they took parts of the EP (Vespers) and parts of the Mass and combined them into one (according to the approved rubrics given) so they would still have time for mental prayer following this. It became cumbersome for them when some of the elderly nuns got confused and lost their place during the service, so they then decided to start with a separate Mass first, followed by regular Vespers, and then do mental prayer. It took longer to do this way, but it was easier for everyone to follow.

 

As for Seattle Carmel - I have never been there, but every communication I have had with them via email has been pleasant and helpful and I nearly went to visit them before coming to the UK, but ran out of time. I think they are worth checking out.

Thanks, Sr. Teresa! I had no idea that such rubrics existed, so I assumed that it was just scrapping both of the ordinaries. Yes, they seem like a fine community (ETA: Not that I've had any contact with them outside of just going to Mass and hanging around the non-cloistered part of the monastery for a couple of mornings, so I really know nothing about them, I guess.), I just had to wonder at that.... I'm glad you could clear it up!

Edited May 31, 2013 by Christina Thérèse

[Sister Marie]

We do that as well when we have Mass in the evening in our convents and Mass and the office is combined. 

 

I think it rarely happens outside of religious communities so I'm not surprised that it would be a source of confusion! :)

 

Just for the future... when something seems strange its always better to ask first before suggesting it could be an abuse of some kind.  There are lots of ways to celebrate the liturgy validly and appropriately in different types of life.  Most people are used to how it is celebrated in a parish but different communities have different ways of praising God that are liturgically correct and in keeping with the spirit and needs of the community (in this case having office within the Mass).  If there weren't religious on this board this could have given that community a reputation for poor liturgy when it was just different from what the rest of us are used to. 

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

Christina, not only that NOT liturgical abuse, what the Carmel is doing is following the norms for combining Mass and Office. If you have the LOTH you can read the norms in the 1st volume. You probably can also find them online somewhere.

[dominicansoul]

It's been a long time since I've been there, and someone correct me if I'm wrong...

 

But I believe the Nashies do this same exact thing for their weekday Masses...

[TheresaThoma]

At all the daily Masses at my parish we combine Morning or evening prayer (depending on if the Mass is in the morning or evening) with Mass. I think it is wonderful, it gives people a chance to experience morning/evening prayer which they might otherwise not be able to. So this is more common than one might think.

 

[nikita92]

If it is St.Joseph's M...I have only been once before. It was last August. There were only 2 of us attending for Vespers. I could barely make out their words...it was hard for me to hear for some reason. My car went capute right after that... So I haven't been back since.

[ChristinaTherese]

Sisters all, thank you very much for clearing things up! (And DS and TT.)

We do that as well when we have Mass in the evening in our convents and Mass and the office is combined. 

 

I think it rarely happens outside of religious communities so I'm not surprised that it would be a source of confusion! :)

 

Just for the future... when something seems strange its always better to ask first before suggesting it could be an abuse of some kind.  There are lots of ways to celebrate the liturgy validly and appropriately in different types of life.  Most people are used to how it is celebrated in a parish but different communities have different ways of praising God that are liturgically correct and in keeping with the spirit and needs of the community (in this case having office within the Mass).  If there weren't religious on this board this could have given that community a reputation for poor liturgy when it was just different from what the rest of us are used to. 

You're right. I should have asked first (maybe in the Q&A board would have been good), before jumping to conclusions. I'm glad all of you Sisters were able to be here to clear things up, though. (And let this be a lesson to all of us to both ask respectfully before assuming the worst and know what's going on when/if we run into it elsewhere. (Or at the same monastery ;) ))

 

Christina, not only that NOT liturgical abuse, what the Carmel is doing is following the norms for combining Mass and Office. If you have the LOTH you can read the norms in the 1st volume. You probably can also find them online somewhere.

:doh: I have it, I think I started to read the norms... and then I didn't finish. Thanks for reminding me that they're there and I was wanting to read them. I just put it in a box that I'm going to put in storage for the summer tomorrow, now I think I'll pull it out again and read them over the summer.

 

If it is St.Joseph's M...I have only been once before. It was last August. There were only 2 of us attending for Vespers. I could barely make out their words...it was hard for me to hear for some reason. My car went capute right after that... So I haven't been back since.

Yep, that it is.

[littlesister]

We do this ourselves on occasion, if it is a Mass for the community in the convent chapel.

[AnneLine]

Our Secular Order community used to combine Mass and Evening Prayer when we had both... but found it was just too confusing and distracting to our newer members and those who were visiting.  And a lot of people had a similar reaction to yours, Christina Therese!

 

One of the things many of us forget is that there are MANY options for praying the LOTH in those rubrics.... some intended for when praying in community, others to make it more prayerful when praying by oneself (although always united with all who are praying the LOTH). 

 

And sometimes customs develop because it works better for that community.  For example, I pray EP and OR over the telephone with a friend almost every night.  After quite a bit of trial and error, we've made some minor modifications for praying the parts that normally would be said by all as alternating choruses... because we found our phones cancelled us out when we spoke at the same time!   Certainly a logical and practical modification... but disconcerting to people who join us for an evening when we do it that way!  Just a practical 'local custom'.  :)

 

The other thing is that, sometimes there are customs or 'local rubrics' that belong to the traditions of a particular religious community.  For example, Sr. Mary Catharine, am I right in remembering that the Dominicans ALWAYS sing the Salve Regina at the end of Night Prayer, even when the rest of us pray the Regina Coeli?  I've been taught that when you are visiting a community, follow their lead.  And it works... and sometimes one learns that something makes ones' own prayerlife more full or richer!

 

One last thought... It can also be disconcerning when some communities repeat (or don't repeat) antiphons or pray (or don't pray) the 'psalm-prayers' -- but those are perfectly valid options.   And there are a whole bunch of others. 

 

So.... as long as it is respectful, prayerful worship, I tend to just suspect it is a valid option, and stay at peace and prayerfully join the local community.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2013 by AnneLine