Near Death Experiences?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

When CAK says silly things like that, I tend not to take it seriously lol

 

I tend not to take anything CAK says seriously.  :|

Edited June 1, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Nihil Obstat]

Listen I don't even like this phenomena being referred to as "near death experiences" because the person who reports the NDE was ACTUALLY dead and resuscitated - so that wasn't "near death" it was literally dead. So I don't believe the experience can be passed off as a dream.

In a strictly biological sense perhaps, but in a theological, existential sense the fact that they pulled through proves ipso facto that they were not actually dead. (A person is judged immediately upon death.) Which tells me that the biological criteria for saying "this person was dead" is perhaps not quite sufficient.

[HisChildForever]

In a strictly biological sense perhaps, but in a theological, existential sense the fact that they pulled through proves ipso facto that they were not actually dead. (A person is judged immediately upon death.) Which tells me that the biological criteria for saying "this person was dead" is perhaps not quite sufficient.

 

I see what you're saying, but when someone flatlines, there's no guarantee that he'll come back. So in that moment he's dead, no?

[Nihil Obstat]

I see what you're saying, but when someone flatlines, there's no guarantee that he'll come back. So in that moment he's dead, no?

He is only dead if he is dead. :hehe: If he comes back, he was never dead. If he does not come back, then he clearly died. The question is when.

I think that currently we as Catholics use brain death criteria to determine death, which as I understand it means the complete cessation of brain activity. When people talk about near death experiences, are we not typically referring to the heart and respiration stopping?

I seem to recall that Peyton has interesting stuff to say about brain death criteria. She cleared up a misconception I had in the past, though I cannot now remember what it was.

[HisChildForever]

He is only dead if he is dead. :hehe: If he comes back, he was never dead. If he does not come back, then he clearly died. The question is when.

I think that currently we as Catholics use brain death criteria to determine death, which as I understand it means the complete cessation of brain activity. When people talk about near death experiences, are we not typically referring to the heart and respiration stopping?

I seem to recall that Peyton has interesting stuff to say about brain death criteria. She cleared up a misconception I had in the past, though I cannot now remember what it was.

 

Okay so...it's super late and I'm mostly thinking aloud here so bear with me lol...the brain is still alive but the pulmonary and respiratory have shut down, so that leaves x amount of time for the person to be resuscitated, there's that window before the brain begins to shut down/shuts down (the point of no return) so the NDE could only occur during that window. So then one can argue that A, the NDE is due to brain activity/the brain's response to organ failure or B, the person has a spiritual experience because he's on the cusp of death, or C...I'm out of ideas lol.

[Guest]

And Nureoscientist Eben Alexanders brain was shut down almost completly for a week...And his near death experience was linear (sp) throughout the week...He was also visited in the nde by a sister he never knew he had and found out later after the experience...

[Nihil Obstat]

Okay so...it's super late and I'm mostly thinking aloud here so bear with me lol...the brain is still alive but the pulmonary and respiratory have shut down, so that leaves x amount of time for the person to be resuscitated, there's that window before the brain begins to shut down/shuts down (the point of no return) so the NDE could only occur during that window. So then one can argue that A, the NDE is due to brain activity/the brain's response to organ failure or B, the person has a spiritual experience because he's on the cusp of death, or C...I'm out of ideas lol.

Sounds fair to me. :)
I am also willing to accept, at least in theory, that a person could be alive while meeting the criteria for brain death, in some way we currently do not understand. I am not sure that is likely, and it would necessitate a reevaluation of our bioethics, so in practice that is perhaps not the case. But it strikes me as being at least technically possible.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

One night a few years ago I was glued to this website chock full of near death experience stories. While the stories had some similarities there were also huge differences. For example, there were Christians who reported Jesus, no Jesus, and nothingness - just like there were Buddhists who reported Jesus, or the general concept of a God, or loved ones, whatever. I wish I could remember the site. Anyway, I know this is the internet and people can make up whatever they'd like, but we hear these stories in the news, maybe the workplace, maybe from a friend.

 

How do we as Catholic Christians make sense of these stories, especially if certain versions of the afterlife don't jive with Catholic theology?

 

NDEs seem to be the brain's way of dealing with death. I don't think they're real. There are drugs, like DMT and Ketamine, that reproduce the effects of a near death experience. We don't know much about NDEs but I believe we should be more skeptical about them. We play into the God of the Margins idea if we attribute the supernatural to phenomenon with possible scientific explanations.

Edited June 2, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Guest]

From what I've read dmt isn't like near death experices...Although Ketamine is...How similar I'm not sure....There seem to be some really legit nde's but mabey they aren't real...Although if they aren't real one has to wonder what's going on...These people are claiming to a lot of times come into contact with Divine Light...If this is all just a coping mechanisim of the brain then that isn't good news in my opinion...I say its not good news because I want God to exist...To think that God could not be real and just be part of the brains evolution and and a coping mechanisim is scary and sad to me......Although I have seen testimonies of near death experiences from militant atheist....I still remember one...I wish I could post the link but can't on this phone.....One has to wonder why this guy would have a nde and have it centered on God if he didn't believe in God to begin with...And now his life is chaged and he is a devout christian.....And he also like many others desrcibed the nde as the realest thing he ever experienced....Nothing like a dream...

Edited June 2, 2013 by Guest

[CatholicsAreKewl]

From what I've read dmt isn't like near death experices...Although Ketamine is...How similar I'm not sure....There seem to be some really legit nde's but mabey they aren't real...Although if they aren't real one has to wonder what's going on...These people are claiming to a lot of times come into contact with Divine Light...If this is all just a coping mechanisim of the brain then that isn't good news in my opinion...I say its not good news because I want God to exist...To think that God could not be real and just be part of the brains evolution and and a coping mechanisim is scary and sad to me......Although I have seen testimonies of near death experiences from militant atheist....I still remember one...I wish I could post the link but can't on this phone.....One has to wonder why this guy would have a nde and have it centered on God if he didn't believe in God to begin with...And now his life is chaged and he is a devout christian.....And he also like many others desrcibed the nde as the realest thing he ever experienced....Nothing like a dream...

 

I'm not doubting that these experiences seem very real to the people who experience them.  I don't think God's existence neccesarily depends on these accounts being accurate.