Aethists Redeemed? Pope Francis

[thessalonian]

This maybe should go in debate but we will start it off here.  I have thought of this before, if anyone could be invincibly ignorant as an atheist.  I go back and forth but mostly back.  I have a hard time seeing it.  But it certainly is more difficult for an atheist today I think, because there are so many atheists who have written long windage, justifying themselves, that has influenced others.  I guess I would rather the Pope hadn't said this as it will be twisted and turned and used in ways that it was not intended.  Thoughts?

 

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/?iref=allsearch

 

[Nihil Obstat]

I think we must understand this as meaning "atheists are redeemed by Christ's sacrifice, as are all men, but they, like anyone else, must accept Jesus Christ and His Church."

[Era Might]

"For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all." --Romans 11:32

[KnightofChrist]

I think we must understand this as meaning "atheists are redeemed by Christ's sacrifice, as are all men, but they, like anyone else, must accept Jesus Christ and His Church."

 

"It is an absurd dichotomy to think of living with Jesus but without the Church, of following Jesus outside of the Church, of loving Jesus without loving the Church" - Pope Francis

 

 

[EmilyAnn]

Since when do we stop speaking the truth just because people will twist it? If we did that we wouldn't say anything at all. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Since when do we stop speaking the truth just because people will twist it? If we did that we wouldn't say anything at all.

In a world as messed up as ours, sometimes extra effort is prudent in order to ensure as much as possible that we are not misunderstood. It does not help that we do not even get the entirety of his remarks and all the context therein.
Fr. Z wrote a good little follow-up yesterday.


Pope Francis on the possibility of salvation for atheists
Posted on 23 May 2013 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
People are sending me notes about Pope Francis’ fervorino from Mass yesterday. News outlets (and panicky emails I am getting) are suggesting that the Pope said that atheists go to heaven.

Alas, we never get what the Pope actually said in its entirety. We are only getting bits and pieces as determined by someone working for either Vatican Radio or L’Osservatore Romano or… well… it’s hard to know! This is a problem. Did the newsie doing the reporting making the right selection of quotes? Is the newsie doing the reporting a theologian? We should either get everything Francis says or nothing. Moreover, the Italian accounts and the English accounts of what Francis said differ somewhat. And who knows how what Francis says in these sermonettes will ultimately be related to the Ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff? We are told that it is doesn’t form part of his magisterial teaching, but… really? They sure are being played up by the Holy See’s news agencies, aren’t they!

Back to the Pope’s sermon from 22 May.

If you go through his comments as reported, and I did, there is nothing in Pope Francis’s remarks about the possibility of atheists being saved that is not in keeping with the document Dominus Iesus.

In a nutshell, Francis was not talking about non-Catholics or non-Christians. He was not talking about those who profess another religion with their own mediators. He was not talking about those who pray to other gods. He was talking about atheists.

Moreover, Francis was clear that whatever graces are offered to atheists (such that they may be saved) are from Christ. He was clear that salvation is only through Christ’s Sacrifice. In other words, he is not suggesting – and I think some are taking it this way – that you can be saved, get to heaven, without Christ.

So, have a care with these sermons. It is great to get pithy lines from the Holy Father about something that is crystal clear such as, say, the Devil. It is another when the pithy quip veers into something that is more difficult to untangle. It is best not to jump to negative conclusions based on the incomplete reports about fervorini of ambiguous magisterial authority.

[EmilyAnn]

In a world as messed up as ours, sometimes extra effort is prudent in order to ensure as much as possible that we are not misunderstood. It does not help that we do not even get the entirety of his remarks and all the context therein.
Fr. Z wrote a good little follow-up yesterday.


Pope Francis on the possibility of salvation for atheists
Posted on 23 May 2013 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
People are sending me notes about Pope Francis’ fervorino from Mass yesterday. News outlets (and panicky emails I am getting) are suggesting that the Pope said that atheists go to heaven.

Alas, we never get what the Pope actually said in its entirety. We are only getting bits and pieces as determined by someone working for either Vatican Radio or L’Osservatore Romano or… well… it’s hard to know! This is a problem. Did the newsie doing the reporting making the right selection of quotes? Is the newsie doing the reporting a theologian? We should either get everything Francis says or nothing. Moreover, the Italian accounts and the English accounts of what Francis said differ somewhat. And who knows how what Francis says in these sermonettes will ultimately be related to the Ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff? We are told that it is doesn’t form part of his magisterial teaching, but… really? They sure are being played up by the Holy See’s news agencies, aren’t they!

Back to the Pope’s sermon from 22 May.

If you go through his comments as reported, and I did, there is nothing in Pope Francis’s remarks about the possibility of atheists being saved that is not in keeping with the document Dominus Iesus.

In a nutshell, Francis was not talking about non-Catholics or non-Christians. He was not talking about those who profess another religion with their own mediators. He was not talking about those who pray to other gods. He was talking about atheists.

Moreover, Francis was clear that whatever graces are offered to atheists (such that they may be saved) are from Christ. He was clear that salvation is only through Christ’s Sacrifice. In other words, he is not suggesting – and I think some are taking it this way – that you can be saved, get to heaven, without Christ.

So, have a care with these sermons. It is great to get pithy lines from the Holy Father about something that is crystal clear such as, say, the Devil. It is another when the pithy quip veers into something that is more difficult to untangle. It is best not to jump to negative conclusions based on the incomplete reports about fervorini of ambiguous magisterial authority.

I have actually already read that. :) 

I agree the lack of context is never helpful. And while it is important to be prudent, there is no amount of prudence that will stop some people from twisting what is said. 

 

[jazzytakara]

I came across this article, it offers an interesting perspective on this discussion: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2276/pope_francis_teaches_that_everyone_is_saved_wow_hold_on_wait_a_second.aspx#.UZ-sHkBQH8j

 

[Era Might]

Catholics need to step out of the Counter-Reformation. Seriously. It's 2013 already!

Edited May 24, 2013 by Era Might

[Nihil Obstat]

I came across this article, it offers an interesting perspective on this discussion: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2276/pope_francis_teaches_that_everyone_is_saved_wow_hold_on_wait_a_second.aspx#.UZ-sHkBQH8j

I found it a bit condescending, but those are good quotes that we would all do well to keep in mind.

[Papist]

Jesus died for all. Having been crucified for our salvation, Christ has set the grace of repentance before the whole world.

 

[jazzytakara]

I found it a bit condescending, but those are good quotes that we would all do well to keep in mind.

 

I didn't like the tone of the article either, I just thought the quotes were interesting in the context of the controversy going on. Helps place things in a bit more context and not assume that our Pope is going against Church Teaching. 

[Socrates]

Yeah, it looks to me like this article is another example of the secular media desperate to find controversy within the Church. It seems that many in the media are eager for anything they can present as a "The Pope changes Church Teaching on X!"  I doubt the quotes are being given in their full context, and it is clear the Pope was not issuing any kind of dogmatic statement, much less "changing" Church teaching on the need for Christ for salvation.

 

Last Sunday, our priest gave a homily on the doctrine of Ex Ecclesia Nulla Salus, in which he explained the teaching of Baptism of Desire, and made the point that invincible ignorance in itself does not give salvation.  "Ignorance is not a sacrament."  Those who have not had the Gospel preached to them may be saved through Baptism of Desire by a sincere and strong desire to live by the moral truth and always do what is right and avoid what is evil.  He also pointed out how such persons usually accept the Faith and Baptism when it is presented to them.  (He gave the example of Chief Peter Walking Bear, who was baptized in old age, and said throughout his life he never knowingly did evil, and always changed when it was made known to him that something he did was wrong).

 

I would seriously doubt that many modern Western atheists would qualify as truly invincibly ignorant, but is is not my place to judge individual souls.

I think we Catholics should spend less time speculating and bickering over what non-Catholics possibly might or might not be saved, and more time trying to being all men to Christ and His Church as Christ commanded

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Wait... What would qualify as an Atheist being "invincibly ignorant"? Correct me if I'm wrong but this statement makes it appear as if most Atheists deep down know there's a God but choose to reject him. 

Edited May 24, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Apotheoun]

In Eastern Christian theology all men have been redeemed, because they have been given everlasting existence through the incarnation and the paschal mystery of Christ, but whether that eternal existence is blissful or painful is left to the free will choices of each man.