Attn: Catholic Scouts And Former Scouts

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Sorry, I to forgot to make the orientation vs. behavior distinction. In your reference to "gay scouts", I would view that as an active behavior or lifestyle, not simply an orientation. Those suffering from such an orientation (Scouts with Same-Sex Attraction) should, and God willing, do desire such a pursuit and will seek it out. Those who actively engage in and pursue any intrinsically disordered behavior, however, need to turn from that lifestyle to truly and fully seek out a pursuit of virtue (or to be able to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime).

 

I'm a bit confused by this position as well. Since when did we agree with the moral philosophy of the LDS? The Scouts is a gov funded/supported organization. Tom and Steve's decision to have sex 0, 10, or 12039120392 times has 0 effect on my life as an American citizen. 

Edited May 30, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[CatholicCid]

Your statement that individuals with same-sex attraction are not able to make ethical and moral choices is what I take offense to.

Then, I suppose my clarification was not clear because that is not what I posted. Individuals who actively engage in an intrinsically disordered lifestyle are hindered by such a lifestyle when attempting to make ethical and moral choices. To actively pursue a lifestyle that is immoral (intrinsically disordered) would hinder one's choices in the moral order.

 

An analogy: A man running a marathon on an injured foot is hindered in his running of the marathon. Without attempting to heal his injury, he will be hindered, to some degree, in running the marathon.

 

Using the distinctions I made in post #29, it should be clear that I view individuals with same-sex attraction as individuals who are not actively engaging in a homosexual lifestyle. Therefore, they would not be hindered in the same manner as someone who is actively engaged in such a lifestyle.

Edited May 31, 2013 by CatholicCid

[CatholicCid]

I'm a bit confused by this position as well. Since when did we agree with the moral philosophy of the LDS? The Scouts is a gov funded/supported organization. Tom and Steve's decision to have sex 0, 10, or 12039120392 times has 0 effect on my life as an American citizen. 

 

I am not aware of LDS moral philosophy; My thoughts are based on Catholic moral theology. I am also unaware as to how the Scouts are funded by the government. Could you provide more information as to how the BSA is a government funded organization? Also, what does such funding mean considering the BSA is a private institution, not a public institution?

 

Anyway, I am simply responding to the Scout's recent decision as a Catholic Scout myself, as per the request of the OP.

 

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The Scout Oath includes attempting to do my duty to God and also to keep oneself morally straight. To a Catholic Scout, these two parts of the oath would seem to require following Christ and His Church. To a Catholic Scout, engaging in an active homosexual lifestyle would be violating my duty to God and would be swerving from the morally straight path. Therefore, it does not seem possible that an active homosexual could truthfully take the Scout Oath and, therefore, could not be a member of the Scouts. 

Edited May 31, 2013 by CatholicCid

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I am not aware of LDS moral philosophy; My thoughts are based on Catholic moral theology. I am also unaware as to how the Scouts are funded by the government. Could you provide more information as to how the BSA is a government funded organization? Also, what does such funding mean considering the BSA is a private institution, not a public institution?

 In 2008 the senate passed a law ordering the secretary of treasury to mint and sell up to 350,000 Scout themed coins to the public and to donate the profits to the Scouts. A good chunk of scouting units are chartered by government funded institutions like public schools.

Check out these gems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_Our_Scouts_Act

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/2554

 

...and the LDS is connected to the scouts. That's why I mentioned them in my post.

 

 

 

Anyway, I am simply responding to the Scout's recent decision as a Catholic Scout myself, as per the request of the OP.

 

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The Scout Oath includes attempting to do my duty to God and also to keep oneself morally straight. To a Catholic Scout, these two parts of the oath would seem to require following Christ and His Church. To a Catholic Scout, engaging in an active homosexual lifestyle would be violating my duty to God and would be swerving from the morally straight path. Therefore, it does not seem possible that an active homosexual could truthfully take the Scout Oath and, therefore, could not be a member of the Scouts.

I don't have a problem with the Scouts excluding certain groups from their organization.  I feel it's unfair that they do this with government support and funding from our tax money. 

Edited May 31, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[add]

What does sexual preferences really have to do with an origination primarily made up with and for prepubescent boys?

 

 

[Basilisa Marie]

What does sexual preferences really have to do with an origination primarily made up with and for prepubescent boys?

 

Eagle Scouts are high school guys. 

[cappie]

Catholic leaders urge support for Boy Scouts after shift on gays: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/catholic-leaders-urge-support-for-boy-scouts-after-shift-on-gays/2013/05/31/3437d432-ca2a-11e2-9cd9-3b9a22a4000a_story.html

[CatholicCid]

Bishop responds to Boy Scouts’ decision on admission of homosexual members 

Bishop Robert Guglielmone of Charleston, the episcopal liaison of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to the National Catholic Committee on Scouting, has responded to the Boy Scouts of America’s approval of a resolution stating that “No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.” ... â€œChurch teaching is very clear that the homosexual inclination is not sinful and that same-sex attraction is not immoral,” added Bishop Guglielmone, “but that what we’re dealing with here is the distinction between the inclination and the conduct. The standards remain the same as they always have for scouts. Homosexual activity will not be condoned.”

 

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=17978&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+%28Catholic+World+News+%28on+CatholicCulture.org%29%29

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2013 by CatholicCid

[CatholicCid]

 In 2008 the senate passed a law ordering the secretary of treasury to mint and sell up to 350,000 Scout themed coins to the public and to donate the profits to the Scouts. A good chunk of scouting units are chartered by government funded institutions like public schools.

Check out these gems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_Our_Scouts_Act

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/2554

 

...and the LDS is connected to the scouts. That's why I mentioned them in my post.

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with the Scouts excluding certain groups from their organization.  I feel it's unfair that they do this with government support and funding from our tax money. 

 

To be fair, it seems that the government is willingly giving the money to support the Scouts, knowing full well their beliefs.

 

Given your example of the coins, the profits were donated to the Scouts. As to public institutions chartering the organization, if I recall correctly, they know full well what they are receiving and actually are agreeing to following the Scouting program as laid out by the BSA. Just because public institutions find the Scouting program useful and desire to make that program available to the youths in their charge does not mean that the program itself must be fitted to the public institutions desires. If there are irreconcilable beliefs, then the public institutions should not charter such an organization.

 

And, again, I am still lost on the LDS connection. Catholics are also connected to the Scouts (hence this thread).

[CatholicsAreKewl]

To be fair, it seems that the government is willingly giving the money to support the Scouts, knowing full well their beliefs.

 

Given your example of the coins, the profits were donated to the Scouts. As to public institutions chartering the organization, if I recall correctly, they know full well what they are receiving and actually are agreeing to following the Scouting program as laid out by the BSA. Just because public institutions find the Scouting program useful and desire to make that program available to the youths in their charge does not mean that the program itself must be fitted to the public institutions desires. If there are irreconcilable beliefs, then the public institutions should not charter such an organization.

 

And, again, I am still lost on the LDS connection. Catholics are also connected to the Scouts (hence this thread).

 

The government is using our money to donate to this organization. Our tax money is used to fund the Treasury, isn't it? How exactly did they fund the minting of these coins? This isn't the only time our government has done something like this, either. Do you also support the Scouts' dealing with atheist children? I'm fine with this organization excluding whoever it wants. I'm not fine with them using our tax money.

 

The LDS is the single biggest doner to the Scouts. The Scouts didn't always have this policy against gays/atheists/whoever else they don't like.

Edited June 3, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[CatholicCid]

The government is using our money to donate to this organization. Our tax money is used to fund the Treasury, isn't it? How exactly did they fund the minting of these coins? This isn't the only time our government has done something like this, either. Do you also support the Scouts' dealing with atheist children? I'm fine with this organization excluding whoever it wants. I'm not fine with them using our tax money.

 

The LDS is the single biggest doner to the Scouts. The Scouts didn't always have this policy against gays/atheists/whoever else they don't like.

It sounds as if your disagreement with who the government donates to would be better directed at the government than the Scouts. The government is free to withhold such donations and chartering such organizations. Those who make such donations, however, must feel that that which the Scouts offer outweighs those issue they might disagree on the Scouts with. 

 

And, yes, I do support the Scout's dealing with atheist (and agnostic) children. The BSA is an organization operating with an inherent belief in God. It is a core belief. Rejecting such a belief prevents one from fully entering into Scouting because Scouting inherently includes a belief in God (as demonstrated by the oath).

 

And, again, I fail to understand the LDS and BSA connection. The Scouts were founded in 1910. Both LDS and Catholic Churches began chartering troops within several years of the founding, if not in 1910 itself. Could you provide a bit of articulated history on the ban itself? I'm not sure if they've ever 'altered' their morals on this matter (especially for donations, as you seem to be implying). 

Edited June 3, 2013 by CatholicCid

[CatholicsAreKewl]

It sounds as if your disagreement with who the government donates to would be better directed at the government than the Scouts. The government is free to withhold such donations and chartering such organizations. Those who make such donations, however, must feel that that which the Scouts offer outweighs those issue they might disagree on the Scouts with. 

 

And, yes, I do support the Scout's dealing with atheist (and agnostic) children. The BSA is an organization operating with an inherent belief in God. It is a core belief. Rejecting such a belief prevents one from fully entering into Scouting because Scouting inherently includes a belief in God (as demonstrated by the oath).

 

And, again, I fail to understand the LDS and BSA connection. The Scouts were founded in 1910. Both LDS and Catholic Churches began chartering troops within several years of the founding, if not in 1910 itself. Could you provide a bit of articulated history on the ban itself? I'm not sure if they've ever 'altered' their morals on this matter (especially for donations, as you seem to be implying). 

 

In 1910, the BSA wasn't as concerned with pushing a religious agenda. The Cold War changed things. During that time the organization got taken over by the Christian right, especially the Mormon Church. I have no issue with your support of the BSA's policies. I'm more concerned about the morality behind our government collecting money from people for the BSA and the BSA telling those same people that their children can't join.

 

 

 

It sounds as if your disagreement with who the government donates to would be better directed at the government than the Scouts. The government is free to withhold such donations and chartering such organizations.

My disagreement is with both. We might have different ideas of how the government should work. If this is true, it would be silly for us to continue debating. However, I'm curious to find out if you'll meet me at the other side with your logic. Let's say there is a Muslim organization that doesn't allow Catholics to join. Do you believe the government has the right to support/fund this organization in the same way?

Edited June 3, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[CatholicCid]

In 1910, the BSA wasn't as concerned with pushing a religious agenda. The Cold War changed things. During that time the organization got taken over by the Christian right, especially the Mormon Church. I have no issue with your support of the BSA's policies. I'm more concerned about the morality behind our government collecting money from people for the BSA and the BSA telling those same people that their children can't join.

 

 

 

My disagreement is with both. We might have different ideas of how the government should work. If this is true, it would be silly for us to continue debating. However, I'm curious to find out if you'll meet me at the other side with your logic. Let's say there is a Muslim organization that doesn't allow Catholics to join. Do you believe the government has the right to support/fund this organization in the same way?

I would disagree that the BSA is suddenly pushing a religious agenda. It has always been an organization founded with a belief in God. 

 

As to your concern of morality, I again think it should be focused on the government who is making the donations/chartering organizations and not the Scouts who are operating as they always have. The BSA is a private institution, meaning they can operate as they want. If the government does not want to donate to them, then they should not do so. It seems wrong to argue that the BSA must change when it is, again, a private institution that is legally allowed to operate as it does.

 

 

Unrelated, but interesting side-note, there are Muslim Scouting troops.

 

Back on topic, if there is a private organization, then they are allowed to regulate their membership as they deem fit. Whether or not the government should make donations to such an organization is an entirely different topic. I would base my judgment on whether or not the government should donate to the organization (to operate as it does) based on the merits of the organization. I would not demand that the private organization be forced to become a public, government-run organization cause the government sees merit in making donations so that the organization can continue it's work.

Edited June 3, 2013 by CatholicCid

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I would disagree that the BSA is suddenly pushing a religious agenda. It has always been an organization founded with a belief in God.

 

Really? Did they always have this exclusionary policy?

 

 

As to your concern of morality, I again think it should be focused on the government who is making the donations/chartering organizations and not the Scouts who are operating as they always have.

I imagine you nudging and winking when you say "government donations". The BSA is allowed to use Tax funded facilities and our government has initiated tax funded donation efforts to support the Scouts. There are other ways the government funds/supports the scouts as well.

 

 

The BSA is a private institution, meaning they can operate as they want. If the government does not want to donate to them, then they should not do so. It seems wrong to argue that the BSA must change when it is, again, a private institution that is legally allowed to operate as it does.

You're right. I'm arguing that the government should not allow them to use publically funded facilities/give them money indirectly.

 

Unrelated, but interesting side-note, there are Muslim Scouting troops.

Interesting.

 

Back on topic, if there is a private organization, then they are allowed to regulate their membership as they deem fit. Whether or not the government should make donations to such an organization is an entirely different topic. I would base my judgment on whether or not the government should donate to the organization (to operate as it does) based on the merits of the organization. I would not demand that the private organization be forced to become a public, government-run organization cause the government sees merit in making donations so that the organization can continue it's work.

I might not have made my position clear. I do not believe the BSA should become a public, government-run organization. My argument is that it shouldn't be funded/supported by the state if it has these policies.

[CatholicCid]

Really? Did they always have this exclusionary policy?

 

 

I imagine you nudging and winking when you say "government donations". The BSA is allowed to use Tax funded facilities and our government has initiated tax funded donation efforts to support the Scouts. There are other ways the government funds/supports the scouts as well.

 

 

 

You're right. I'm arguing that the government should not allow them to use publically funded facilities/give them money indirectly.

 

 

Interesting.

 

 

I might not have made my position clear. I do not believe the BSA should become a public, government-run organization. My argument is that it shouldn't be funded/supported by the state if it has these policies.

 

On an unrelated note, I do not nudge or wink  :farmer:

 

As to the policy, I would imagine it has always been inherent given the Oath and had to only be more formally pronounced once it became a societal issue. 

 

And, as to the last of your comments, I would again suggest your real complaints should be with the government that is making such donations and chartering such organizations, not the organizations themselves. The BSA has done nothing wrong in this regard. And, I am consciously using donation and chartering as the terms over funding/supporting, because, as you noted, the Scouts do receive funds from other sources. Even without federal donations, the BSA would continue to exist. Why, then, has the government donated to and chartered this organization for so long? I suggest there is a reason.

 

The reason public institutions charter troops is because they must see that the values taught and strengths provided by the BSA are worthwhile. When a troop is chartered, the organization chartering the troop agrees (contractually) to follow the BSA policies. In return, the BSA assists and guides the formation and running of the troop. The BSA provide a program and clearly state their policies and objectives. If the government is willing to "fund" this organization, there must be the belief that the goods presented by the BSA outweigh the "bad." If one believes that the BSA do more harm than good, then that should be discussed with their representative who is promoting donations to the BSA.