Jake Huether Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 ,Aug 27 2003, 08:38 AM] That's what I thought it would be. So can you show me anywhere where God guarenteed that He would keep Sacred Tradition from corrupting? It's in with the statemen that the Bible would never be corrupted! :D Just kidding... There is no such statement about the Bible. Jesus Promised his early Church, the Apostels, that he would be with them until the end of time. He promised that the Holy Spirit would reveal things to them (later), and that they didn't need to wory about what they would say. I suppose that if Tradition was to corrupt, then Christ might not have told them NOT to worry. Saint Paul tells the Church to, "HOLD FAST to the Traditions you were taught, either by WORD OF MOUTH or by letter." If Sacred Scripture can NOT corrupt, then neither can Sacred Tradition (different from traditions of men). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Sacred Tradition (different from traditions of men). How can you tell the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 It's in with the statemen that the Bible would never be corrupted! :D Just kidding... There is no such statement about the Bible. How about the bit at the end of Revelation? While it doesn't guarentee it won't be corrupted, it promises Bad Things for anyone who does. What I'm saying though, is that it's much harder to corrupt a written document, when you can go back and see the original, then a tradition, which can suffer from Chinese whispers. And I'd still like to know how we can know the difference between Sacred Tradition and man's tradition. What's to say that anything we do in church (any church, I'm not just pointing at catholic churches) is Sacred Tradition or otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 heres some more info that might help jas... Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ?s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion. "?But the word of the Lord abides for ever.? That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25). as for tradition.... They have been handed down and entrusted to the Church (which means to its official teachers, the bishops in union with the pope). It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13). EVERYTHING WAS TAKEN OUT FROM THE CATHOLIC.COM WEBSITE!! http://www.catholic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 It's all documented, Jas. Just read the Early Church fathers! And I'm not talking early, like 1650 or something. I'm talking early, like first couple of centuries! I'll try to find some links for you. But just search... It's there. http://www.catholic-church.org/grace/maria...ian/alfred1.htm Writings of the Church Fathers: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ What the Church believed and believes. http://www.catholic-defense.com/mary.htm http://www.catholic-defense.com/mary2.htm http://www.catholic-defense.com/mary3.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 ,Aug 27 2003, 09:01 AM] How can you tell the difference? Jas, I'm glad you are intersted in learning about this. And I hope that this answer will answer your subsequent post. Our Sacred Tradition has been recorded. While we use the Bible passages stating "word of mouth" to defend Tradition, that isn't really the case NOW. They were "word of mouth", as in, preached by the Apostles wrather than written down by them at the time. So, although the Traditions of the Church were preached by the Apostles themselves, you cannot find them in the Bible - only elusions to, or implicit statments about them. But the Apostles and Early Church Fathers weren't dumb. For one thing, it wasn't like "wispering" to their successors, because their successors were there with the Apostles listening to them preach. Many of the Apostles successors were literate and knew how to write. It wouldn't have been beyond them to scratch down these Traditions while listening to St. John's sermon or homely. Sacred Tradition are the Teachings of Christ that were not "written" by the Apostles. But that isn't to say they were NEVER written down. It isn't like Pope John Paul II was "whisperd" the Traditions from Pope John Paul I, who was "whispered" to by Pope Paul VI, etc. We must also remember that ALL of Christ's Teachings were passed on by word of mouth up until the Apostles started writing. And even then, it was the Apostles who were "preaching" by mouth. Many years passed after Pentecost before the first NT writtings began, and so if Tradition is so easily lost by word of mouth, then who is to say that much of Christ's teachings were "lost" before the NT was written. See where I'm going with this. The Bible was never meant to be a complete "recording" of the Teachings of Christ. Christ never commanded his Apostles to "record" all his Teachings via writing so as to preserve the faith. If that was the case, what was the purpose of the "Church". Christ could have simply spent his 3 years of ministry with the Apostles writting the Bible! And then he could have simply charged the Apostles with the task of distributing copies of the Bible, or teaching FROM the Bible (becasue 99.9999% of everyone was pretty much illiterate at the time). But that wasn't the case. Christ instituted the Church and charged them with the task of PRESERVING and preaching the faith - not in any particular manner, only as they saw fit. In fact, Christ told his Apostles not even to worry about what they would SAY! He said that the Spirit would provide the words. The Apostles knew not to worry, right? And so we know that the Gospels and the NT writings weren't the Aposltes attempt to "preserve" EVERYTHING! The Apostles simply saw writting (prompted by the Spirit) as the necessary means by which to preserve a certain PART of the faith.! It was the Apostles descision to use writting as a medium for preserving part of the faith. Christ never commanded this! If the Apostles had decided NOT to write anything down, are we to presume that the Gospel message would have died a long time ago. Or do we trust Christ's promise of the Holy Spirit within the Church that he founded on Peter, the ROCK, against which the gates of hell would not prevail? How can we tell the difference between the Traditions of the Church and the traditions of men? Traditions of the Chruch do not contradict Scripture, they serve to support it, and vice versa. Traditions of men inevitably are contradictory to Christ's message, and therefore contrary to His Church. Traditions of men cannot be compatible with Scripture or Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradtion complets God's revelation, his Word. God's word is complete with Sacred Scripture (all 73 books - not just 66) and with Tradition (that is Sacred Tradition), and those two can only be recieved infallibly when taught by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church - that is the Teaching Authority convered uppon Christs Church by Christ himself. In other words, whild Tradition and Scripture complete God's Word, God's Word is only "God's Word" when it is Taught by His Church. For instance, if Jack Chick were to take Scripture and Tradition and interpret them to mean that unless you do five jumping jacks while repeating the sinners prayer on October 5th at 2:03 am you're going to hell, this would definitly NOT be God's Word. That is an extreme, but Tradition and Scripture have been skewed by a miriad of "churches" that don't have the Authority that Christ gave to his original Catholic Church. Without the Catholic Church teaching, there is NO guarantee that what you are recieving is correct. It may or may not. Only in the Catholic Church can you be sure that the Teachings are what Christ intended. Now - before I leave you... What I have stated is from my mouth and my mind, and it is how I personally (at the present) understand the Church's teachings on this subject. If there are any errors, they should be pointed out and corrected. If you want the more perfect explenation please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (that is the Teachings of the Church recorded). Refere to this for clarification: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/profess3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I believe of the Book of Revelation because it's the Book of Revelation. It's part of God's Word. Mulls, how do you know that the Book of Revelation is part of God's Word? The only evidence for that is the declaration of the Catholic Church in the year 397 A.D. If you were walking along and tripped across a copy Revelation in Koine Greek for the very first time, would you think, upon examing it, "Hallelujah, I've found part of God's Word." Of course not. Revelation is found between the covers of a book called "ta Biblia" -- the Bible -- and that's how you came to identify it as part of God's Word. The Bible was made by the Catholic Church, as the agent of the Holy Spirit. Protestants tell you that it is the Word of God, and Protestants have only the word of the Catholic Church for it. There is no other evidence, and no other reason to believe it, no witness other than the Church that wrote the NT and formed the Bible (382, 393, 397, and 405 A.D.). Catholics believe that the Bible is the "inspired Word of God" because the Catholic Church, founded by Christ in 33 A.D., tells them it is. And the Church determined and canonized the contents. Protestants believe it simply because they believe it; they have no objective reason. The Bible didn't fall out of heaven -- it was produced by the Church. You never answer these hard questions because you can't. Yet you stubbornly reject the Church and hang onto belief in the Church's book, the Bible. Why? Jesus didn't give us the book -- His Church did! How do you KNOW that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, when only the Church that produced the Bible can tell you what it is? No book can vouch for itself. I could never be Protestant again. Never. Not ever. It's totally illogical. Protestantism carried to its ultimate logical conclusion is atheism. Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic! Likos (Jay) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 likos, how many times have you posted that? if you keep beating me over the head with the same stick, am i supposed to eventually believe it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 That is an extreme, but Tradition and Scripture have been skewed by a miriad of "churches" that don't have the Authority that Christ gave to his original Catholic Church. Without the Catholic Church teaching, there is NO guarantee that what you are recieving is correct. It may or may not. Only in the Catholic Church can you be sure that the Teachings are what Christ intended. This keeps coming up, and I'd just like to know, how do you know that you're always right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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