Since We've Been Talking About Lgbtq Stuff A Lot Lately...

[MarysLittleFlower]

Yep, wasn't disagreeing with you on that.
 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "wanting to love"? Can you clarify?

 

 

Amen. :amen: :notworthy2:

 

when I said "wanting to love", I meant how sometimes people say that homosexual people should be in relationships because "they love one another".

I don't know who you are or where you're from but homosexuality is not a disorder that needs treating like diabetes or cancer or something. What an ignorant thing to say!

It is not a sin to be gay. How dare you suggest that homosexuals are sinners simply because they are. And how dare you suggest they are in need of some kind of help!

If this is not at all what you meant to imply, perhaps you will rethink how you present your opinions on the matter.

I don't think the poster was saying that it's a sin to BE gay, I think they were talking about the homosexual desires... if I'm correct :)

 

as for it being disordered, - the Catechism does say that homosexual desires are "intrinsically disordered", if I remember. (someone correct me if I'm misattributing the quote). It's talking about the desires btw. (I think the poster meant that too?)

 

as for homosexual people needing help - don't we all need help to avoid sin, whatever our weakness is? I think we wouldn't really help people with SSA if we didn't, as a Church, provide them with some sort of help in dealing with SSA :) to help them be celibate etc..since it could be difficult.. I don't think that's an insult. I need help too, to avoid my sins.

[MarysLittleFlower]

double post...

Edited May 23, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

when I said "wanting to love", I meant how sometimes people say that homosexual people should be in relationships because "they love one another".

 

I think it's unfair to say that. God intended for all human beings to have a right to love. Wanting to love someone is human nature.

 

Relationships, however, are a totally different ball game. There are so many different aspects that contribute to them physically, mentally, and emotionally. They're very personal and sensitive, and every relationship is different in its own way whether it's a gay or straight relationship, and everyone has different experiences and interpretations on them. Therefore, I don't feel like I can comment on them effectively without pissing someone off in some way, which I really don't want to do.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think it's unfair to say that. God intended for all human beings to have a right to love. Wanting to love someone is human nature.

 

Relationships, however, are a totally different ball game. There are so many different aspects that contribute to them physically, mentally, and emotionally. They're very personal and sensitive, and every relationship is different in its own way whether it's a gay or straight relationship, and everyone has different experiences and interpretations on them. Therefore, I don't feel like I can comment on them effectively without pissing someone off in some way, which I really don't want to do.

 

Lina, I don't think I really understand what you're saying. I'm going to clarify what I mean and maybe that would help :)

 

what I'm saying specifically is that I don't think it goes with Catholic teaching to approve of gay relationships because "the people want to love one another". The same goes for any sin. It would not even be truly charitable to tell the homosexual people this: because true charity wants the highest good for another, which is salvation. If someone brings another person into sin because they "love them", - what's actually happening is they're putting the person into a sin that would put them in hell. This is one of the reasons perhaps why our conscience needs to be properly informed. My whole point is that I disagree with saying things like "the two men love one another, let them be 'married' and it's okay..." or "the two unmarried love one another, who cares if they 'wait till marriage'".. etc. This makes love something removed from truth and God's law, but truth and love go together :) and love of God is the first Commandment.

 

I know someone might be angry reading my post, but I'm just trying to say what the Church teaches, not to annoy someone. I can't change what the Church teaches, and neither can anyone for that matter.

 

I think that wanting to love another person can be expressed well through sacrificing something you want (like a relationship with them) in order to help them get to Heaven. It's not expressed well through putting them in hell, even if it seems like love here on earth. It won't end well. It won't help them. Also if a person feels the need to BE loved, and so they want to be in a relationship, that could be found in God, much more than in any creature.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

Lina, I don't think I really understand what you're saying. I'm going to clarify what I mean and maybe that would help :)

 

what I'm saying specifically is that I don't think it goes with Catholic teaching to approve of gay relationships because "the people want to love one another". The same goes for any sin. It would not even be truly charitable to tell the homosexual people this: because true charity wants the highest good for another, which is salvation. If someone brings another person into sin because they "love them", - what's actually happening is they're putting the person into a sin that would put them in hell. This is one of the reasons perhaps why our conscience needs to be properly informed. My whole point is that I disagree with saying things like "the two men love one another, let them be 'married' and it's okay..." or "the two unmarried love one another, who cares if they 'wait till marriage'".. etc. This makes love something removed from truth and God's law, but truth and love go together :) and love of God is the first Commandment.

 

I know someone might be angry reading my post, but I'm just trying to say what the Church teaches, not to annoy someone. I can't change what the Church teaches, and neither can anyone for that matter.

 

I think that wanting to love another person can be expressed well through sacrificing something you want (like a relationship with them) in order to help them get to Heaven. It's not expressed well through putting them in hell, even if it seems like love here on earth. It won't end well. It won't help them. Also if a person feels the need to BE loved, and so they want to be in a relationship, that could be found in God, much more than in any creature.

 

Yeah I think you missed my point.

 

The reason why I didn't want to comment on relationships is because every relationship is unique. I can't make a generalization about them that anyone can fully agree with.

 

Like franciscanheart said, being gay is not a sin. Loving another person is not a sin either. Since there's diversity in the way people view relationships, combined with being gay and loving someone not being sins, that's why I said that relationships are a completely different ball games. Being in a relationship doesn't automatically mean marriage either. And once again, marriage is another ball game entirely.

 

For example: there's two women who go to my church. They're both lesbian, and they've considered themselves to be in a relationship because they honestly love each other. They've been together for at least 15 years. But here's the catch, they're not engaging in any type of sinful activity with each other. They are chaste, they don't live together, they are not legally married, they aren't putting each other into sin because they love one another, and they try to love and follow Christ as much as you and I do. They go to church together, they volunteer together, they are faithful companions to one another, they've been through thick and thin, they find ways to be together that won't jeopardize their love and faithfulness to Christ.

Is it difficult? Absolutely. Have they failed sometimes? Probably, we all fail at some point. Is it possible? They make it work somehow.

 

That's the point I was trying to make. I think it's unfair to say that those who are gay can't be in a relationship. Not all relationships involve premarital sex or any other sexual activity that can lead to sin, and its unfair to assume that for both straight and gay relationships. We can't automatically assume these things, we can't see things as black and white because there's so much grey in between. Ultimately, God is the one to judge us, we can't judge our own or anyone elses salvation by things that are automatically assumed. Is it honestly fair to judge the two women I described above to go to hell because they're in a gay relationship without fully knowing the lengths they go through together to be faithful Christians? It goes the same way for a man and a woman who are in a relationship.

 

That's what I meant when I said this

 

I think it's unfair to say that. God intended for all human beings to have a right to love. Wanting to love someone is human nature.

 

Relationships, however, are a totally different ball game. There are so many different aspects that contribute to them physically, mentally, and emotionally. They're very personal and sensitive, and every relationship is different in its own way whether it's a gay or straight relationship, and everyone has different experiences and interpretations on them. Therefore, I don't feel like I can comment on them effectively without pissing someone off in some way, which I really don't want to do.

 

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Yeah I think you missed my point.

 

The reason why I didn't want to comment on relationships is because every relationship is unique. I can't make a generalization about them that anyone can fully agree with.

 

Like franciscanheart said, being gay is not a sin. Loving another person is not a sin either. Since there's diversity in the way people view relationships, combined with being gay and loving someone not being sins, that's why I said that relationships are a completely different ball games. Being in a relationship doesn't automatically mean marriage either. And once again, marriage is another ball game entirely.

 

For example: there's two women who go to my church. They're both lesbian, and they've considered themselves to be in a relationship because they honestly love each other. They've been together for at least 15 years. But here's the catch, they're not engaging in any type of sinful activity with each other. They are chaste, they don't live together, they are not legally married, they aren't putting each other into sin because they love one another, and they try to love and follow Christ as much as you and I do. They go to church together, they volunteer together, they are faithful companions to one another, they've been through thick and thin, they find ways to be together that won't jeopardize their love and faithfulness to Christ.

Is it difficult? Absolutely. Have they failed sometimes? Probably, we all fail at some point. Is it possible? They make it work somehow.

 

That's the point I was trying to make. I think it's unfair to say that those who are gay can't be in a relationship. Not all relationships involve premarital sex or any other sexual activity that can lead to sin, and its unfair to assume that for both straight and gay relationships. We can't automatically assume these things, we can't see things as black and white because there's so much grey in between. Ultimately, God is the one to judge us, we can't judge our own or anyone elses salvation by things that are automatically assumed. Is it honestly fair to judge the two women I described above to go to hell because they're in a gay relationship without fully knowing the lengths they go through together to be faithful Christians? It goes the same way for a man and a woman who are in a relationship.

 

That's what I meant when I said this

 

Thanks for clarifying. I was talking about relationships where sexual activity or intent of sexual activity is part of it. (including kissing and such).

 

I am thinking about the example that you provided... then is it just friendship? If their feelings are more than friendship, I'd wonder if this presents an occasion of sin for them? (I don't know but that's a question I got in my mind after reading this). If I had feelings for a married man, for example, I'd be worried about being around him all the time cause then I'd be tempted to impure thoughts (which would be wrong) or even actions. I am not commenting on their particular case cause I don't know them, but on the whole concept of such a relationship.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

Thanks for clarifying. I was talking about relationships where sexual activity or intent of sexual activity is part of it. (including kissing and such).

 

I am thinking about the example that you provided... then is it just friendship? If their feelings are more than friendship, I'd wonder if this presents an occasion of sin for them? (I don't know but that's a question I got in my mind after reading this). If I had feelings for a married man, for example, I'd be worried about being around him all the time cause then I'd be tempted to impure thoughts (which would be wrong) or even actions. I am not commenting on their particular case cause I don't know them, but on the whole concept of such a relationship.

 

I've known these women for a long time, pretty much all my life, and I'm sure it's not just a friendship. They are very much attracted to one another, they have been in a relationship for over 15 years after all. But they are also more willing, with God's grace, to be faithful Christians. And they are making it work.

 

See, I'm sure that they struggle with their purity just like you and I do with our own. But they turn to God for His grace. God still loves them just as he loves you and I and anyone else.

[MarysLittleFlower]

There was never a question about God loving them.........

 

I'm just wondering, if such an arrangement would present an occasion of sin for someone. I think it would for me, that's why I said that. Not talking about their situation only, but just such relationships generally or hypothetically speaking.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

There was never a question about God loving them.........

 

I'm just wondering, if such an arrangement would present an occasion of sin for someone. I think it would for me, that's why I said that. Not talking about their situation only, but just such relationships generally or hypothetically speaking.

 

I see what you mean. But realistically if you think about it, there are occasions for sin all the time. It's almost impossible to completely avoid it. We can do our best to avoid it, but truthfully it all comes down to the will of someone to not give in. I bet if the women I talk about weren't in a relationship, they would still struggle. It's the same way for those who are straight.

 

I'm glad that things were clarified. I think that this was a good discussion to have. :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

I see what you are saying Lina, but based on everything I've read or heard about Catholic teaching, it's a sin for us to put ourselves in an occasion of sin. There's a difference between us coming across them when we're not looking for them, and putting ourselves into situations where we know we may be tempted. If a person is just trying to fulfill their duties, let's say going to work, and they come across something that tempts them, - their intention had nothing to do with it. But if a person goes into a situation knowingly, from what I read, that is already a sin...... so I guess then it depends, if a certain situation is an occasion of sin, if the person knows it is, etc. Sometimes our only solution... is to give up something, even if we care a lot about it. I know it's hard. Regarding this particular couple - that's something God and them know about.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

I see what you are saying Lina, but based on everything I've read or heard about Catholic teaching, it's a sin for us to put ourselves in an occasion of sin. There's a difference between us coming across them when we're not looking for them, and putting ourselves into situations where we know we may be tempted. If a person is just trying to fulfill their duties, let's say going to work, and they come across something that tempts them, - their intention had nothing to do with it. But if a person goes into a situation knowingly, from what I read, that is already a sin...... so I guess then it depends, if a certain situation is an occasion of sin, if the person knows it is, etc. Sometimes our only solution... is to give up something, even if we care a lot about it. I know it's hard. Regarding this particular couple - that's something God and them know about.

 

They are doing their best, they are trying, they are making it work with what they've got. At least they ARE trying to be faithful Christians. And if you ask me, what they are doing is pretty remarkable in the world and the culture that is out there. They are going to great lengths for each other and for Christ.

 

It's not out job to judge them for their sin just like it's not their job to judge us for our sin. It's God's job. Let God work in His Children.

Edited May 23, 2013 by LinaSt.Cecilia2772

[MarysLittleFlower]

It's good that they're not living the lifestyle that is so easy to live especially with our culture promoting it. Good for them for seeking chastity. I'm trying to understand this in the light of the Church teaching though. Not their hearts, but the situation in general. I'm not talking about their hearts or how God sees them in particular.

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

It's good that they're not living the lifestyle that is so easy to live especially with our culture promoting it. Good for them for seeking chastity. I'm trying to understand this in the light of the Church teaching though. Not their hearts, but the situation in general. I'm not talking about their hearts or how God sees them in particular.

And that's completely understandable. I respect you for that.

[Lil Red]

There was never a question about God loving them.........

 

I'm just wondering, if such an arrangement would present an occasion of sin for someone. I think it would for me, that's why I said that. Not talking about their situation only, but just such relationships generally or hypothetically speaking.

 

are you sure you understand what an occasion of sin is? 

[Lil Red]

I see what you are saying Lina, but based on everything I've read or heard about Catholic teaching, it's a sin for us to put ourselves in an occasion of sin. There's a difference between us coming across them when we're not looking for them, and putting ourselves into situations where we know we may be tempted. If a person is just trying to fulfill their duties, let's say going to work, and they come across something that tempts them, - their intention had nothing to do with it. But if a person goes into a situation knowingly, from what I read, that is already a sin...... so I guess then it depends, if a certain situation is an occasion of sin, if the person knows it is, etc. Sometimes our only solution... is to give up something, even if we care a lot about it. I know it's hard. Regarding this particular couple - that's something God and them know about.

 

because based on this post, I don't think you do.