Since We've Been Talking About Lgbtq Stuff A Lot Lately...

[ploomf]

If you call someone straight, no it doesn't mean they're having sex, but it does mean that they accept their heterosexuality.

 

My whole point is why call someone gay if they are trying to fight the same sex attraction? if they don't want it and don't consent?

 

I tend to say there are people with same sex attraction, and some practice homosexuality, and some practice chastity. I don't know..

 

 

I think someone could know they are homosexual, have no intention of acting on it, and still consider and call themselves homosexual. Why not? For them they are stating a simple fact, homosexuality is their sexual orientation. It doesn't need to mean anything more than that and it certainly doesn’t mean that’s they are letting it control them or define them.

 

If they prefer to refer to themselves as gay or homosexual or queer or whatever instead of using same sex attraction what does it matter? What do you gain by forcing people to play these silly little word games? If I say I’m an American or a Christian or a gamer or a bookworm I don’t see people rushing to correct me or insisting that I say that I’m a person who happens to live in the United States or I’m a person who happens to believe in the Christian faith or I’m a person who happens to like video games or I’m a person who happens to like books. We don’t play these word games with other ways people use to identify themselves, why do we do it with homosexuals?

[Ice_nine]

Here's something ironic I notice. Many of you seem to take issue with people identifying themselves because of disordered attractions. Now, let me say, I tend to agree with you there. But then you insist that these "people with SSA" build every relationship they have with their disordered desires in mind.

 

I'm pretty sure many of you will fail to see this, but in both cases you're essentially reducing the person to their disordered sexual desires. I know no one here thinks they're doing that, but think about it for a hot minute. People with this struggle already deal with a lot of internal bs they don't need people coming in with the assumption that their capacity to love is somehow tainted by their unstraight desires.

[cappie]

Part the Second:  :rolleyes: 

 

The Bible is very clear that God loves everyone, and welcomes all into his family, the church, through faith in Christ, whatever our gender, class or race and, we might add, sexuality. We do need to keep stressing that. But we also need to recognise the fact that the Bible is consistently negative about homosexual sex, and, indeed, about any sex outside heterosexual marriage. The Bible presents only two alternatives: heterosexual marriage or celibacy. Celibacy, whether deliberately chosen as a vocation or reluctantly accepted as a circumstance, is hard. But when tempted to self-pity, I remind myself that that’s true, not just for those attracted to the same sex, but for all who remain single despite longing to be married or those who, for whatever reason, are denied sex in their marriages.

 

While homosexual sin must always be resisted, the circumstances which often accompany same-sex attraction should be accepted as a context in which God can work. There is, without doubt, a difficult aspect to those circumstances, such as, for example, the frustration of not being able to experience the intimacy of a sexual relationship or a feeling of isolation because of the sense of being different. They can nonetheless be viewed in some senses positively, because of a recognition that God is sovereign over them and can work in and through them for his glory, the good of others and our own growth into the likeness of Christ.

 

This perspective should transform how we view all the difficult circumstances in our lives. We’re not called to a super-spiritual positivity which denies the frustration and pain; nor are we to embrace a passivity which spurns any opportunity to change our situation. But we are to recognise the loving hand of God in all we experience and see it as an opportunity for service, growth and fruitfulness.

 

I have found that those I’ve learnt most from have invariably been believers who have grown in Christian maturity by persevering through significant difficulties. The experience of blindness, depression, alcoholism, a difficult marriage, or whatever the struggle may have been, is certainly not good in and of itself and yet God has worked good through it, both in the gold he has refined in their lives and the blessings he has ministered through them. I have seen the same dynamic at work in some godly believers who have experienced a seemingly intractable attraction to the same sex. By learning, no doubt through many difficult times, to look to Christ for the ultimate fulfilment of their relational longings, they have grown into a deep and joyful relationship with him. Their own experience of suffering has also made them sensitive and equipped to help others who struggle in various ways. Those who have not married have embraced the Bible’s very positive teaching about singleness as a gift (see 1 Corinthians 7.32-35), whether chosen or not, which, I imagine, alongside loneliness and sexual frustration, has afforded them wonderful opportunities for the loving service of God and others. I know that I myself would not have had nearly as much time for writing and speaking at missions or conferences if I had been married. I’ve also had more time for friendships, which have been a huge blessing to me and, I trust, to others as well.

 

But of course the pain is real — I can’t deny that. The world, the flesh and the devil all conspire to make sin appear very attractive, so it will be hard for believers to remain godly in this area for the sake of the kingdom of God. To do that you need a clear understanding of the call to self denial in the kingdom — and the dynamic of resurrection life proceeding out of sacrificial death. Christ does call us all to a life of costly suffering as we take up our crosses for him, but, just as it was in his experience, that way of the cross is the path to life: ‘Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it’ (Mark 8.35).

 

Finally, It’s important to recognise that very often God’s power is seen, not by him removing our temptations and difficult circumstances, but by giving us the strength to persevere and live for him in the midst of them. Understanding this profound principle of God’s power being seen in weakness will transform our attitude towards all our battles as believers. We will then be able to see our struggles, including the experience of those  living with same-sex attraction, not just negatively, but also positively.

 

 

 

[kujo]

And for the record, I treat people gay or not as a person, not by their inclinations...whatever they are. 

 

I love how this sort of statement is like a badge of honor for people around here. "Oh look at me, I'm a great person because I treat gay people with dignity and don't externalize the hateful, bigoted feelings I have for them." 

.

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

I'm confused, honestly. I'm not saying my own words. If you're unsure about what I'm referring to:

 

"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God."

 

(1 Cor. 6:9-10, Douay-Rheims).

 

Sooo... if you disagree with this.... this is what the Bible says.

 

OF COURSE it's only if they DON'T repent. We know this from the Church. If someone did.. I dont know... fornication, and then repented, they're forgiven. But the Bible says these things are sinful so if we do them, we would be lost, unless we repent.

 

I honestly don't understand what's so controversial about this on a Catholic forum, since we all believe it's basic Catholic doctrine :) maybe you misunderstood what I meant?

 

I'm NOT talking about specific individuals because:

- I can't judge their hearts

- I don't know if they repented or not

 

I'm basically just saying.....what the Church says...... that is all :) whatever the Bible and the Church says on this that is what I believe. And the Church DOES teach that homosexual actions are gravely sinful, and unrepented mortal sin leads to hell, etc. Nothing new here :)

 

Eh not so sure.

 

To me, it comes off as you judging a broad array of sinners and then using church documents and scripture to make it look okay.

 

It may just be me, I don't know. But using statements like that in so literal and absolute of a context can come off to someone who has sinned (regardless of the type of sin) to be apprehensive about even repenting, especially since the bible verse you referred to doesn't even say anything about repenting for the sin.

 

Hypothetical situation: Say I was married and I cheated on my husband, and someone came and told me I was going to hell for my sin that I had committed and then used that bible verse to back it up, but also said nothing about repent. Of course I would be apprehensive about even going to a place where someone said that Jesus told them I was going to hell for that sin. I wouldn't feel welcome. That's my point.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you about the repent of sins, because that is necessary. It's the way you went about saying that to homosexuals, adulterers, and other people who have sinned in this thread with the bible verses and church documents, that bothered me.

 

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

you need to be clear in your words as the Church is clear in Her words.  Please be more clear in your words, because that's when people get upset and offended - most secular people would have read your first sentence and not bothered with the rest of your post. What you said in your second post is what you should have said, clearly, in the first. 

 You beat me to it, and you put it better than I did. 

 

And what sucks is I ran out of props. So :like2:

[Winchester]

It turns out no one will inherit the Kingdom of God, because He's not going anywhere.

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

It turns out no one will inherit the Kingdom of God, because He's not going anywhere.

 

I see what you did there.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Eh not so sure.

 

To me, it comes off as you judging a broad array of sinners and then using church documents and scripture to make it look okay.

 

It may just be me, I don't know. But using statements like that in so literal and absolute of a context can come off to someone who has sinned (regardless of the type of sin) to be apprehensive about even repenting, especially since the bible verse you referred to doesn't even say anything about repenting for the sin.

 

Hypothetical situation: Say I was married and I cheated on my husband, and someone came and told me I was going to hell for my sin that I had committed and then used that bible verse to back it up, but also said nothing about repent. Of course I would be apprehensive about even going to a place where someone said that Jesus told them I was going to hell for that sin. I wouldn't feel welcome. That's my point.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you about the repent of sins, because that is necessary. It's the way you went about saying that to homosexuals, adulterers, and other people who have sinned in this thread with the bible verses and church documents, that bothered me.

 

 

I was going to leave but maybe I should reply to this post.....

 

Firstly I wasn't talking about "people who have sinned in this thread". I'm a person who has sinned in this thread. I wasn't even talking about anyone in particular.

 

I was saying only what the Church says - not about particular individuals - but about the fact that certain sins lead to hell if not repented of.

 

It's not judging to say that sin is sin... judging would be saying something like this: "you're going to hell because you committed fornication!" That would be judgement because I have no way of knowing if the person would repent, or has repented, and in any case I actually don't go around telling people they're "going to hell". God is their judge. I wasn't talking about particular people but about sins, and mentioning the verse, which is very clear, about the importance of avoiding these sins, and the consequences of them if unrepented. Many people today don't think that homosexual behavior is a sin and this is one of the verses in the Bible that shows us that it is. Of course it must be explained together with other verses and Church teachings about how we can be forgiven of sin if we repent.

[MarysLittleFlower]

It turns out no one will inherit the Kingdom of God, because He's not going anywhere.

 

We are co-heirs with Christ.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think someone could know they are homosexual, have no intention of acting on it, and still consider and call themselves homosexual. Why not? For them they are stating a simple fact, homosexuality is their sexual orientation. It doesn't need to mean anything more than that and it certainly doesn’t mean that’s they are letting it control them or define them.

 

If they prefer to refer to themselves as gay or homosexual or qwerty or whatever instead of using same sex attraction what does it matter? What do you gain by forcing people to play these silly little word games? If I say I’m an American or a Christian or a gamer or a bookworm I don’t see people rushing to correct me or insisting that I say that I’m a person who happens to live in the United States or I’m a person who happens to believe in the Christian faith or I’m a person who happens to like video games or I’m a person who happens to like books. We don’t play these word games with other ways people use to identify themselves, why do we do it with homosexuals?

 

You misunderstood my posts.

 

I don't care at all if people chooose to call themselves homosexual or people with SSA.

 

I was responding to those who had difficulty with me supporting why anyone would prefer "SSA" over "homosexual". I was saying why to me, "SSA" makes sense.

Edited May 24, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[CatholicsAreKewl]

It's not judging to say that sin is sin... judging would be saying something like this: "you're going to hell because you committed fornication!" That would be judgement because I have no way of knowing if the person would repent, or has repented, and in any case I actually don't go around telling people they're "going to hell". God is their judge. I wasn't talking about particular people but about sins, and mentioning the verse, which is very clear, about the importance of avoiding these sins, and the consequences of them if unrepented. Many people today don't think that homosexual behavior is a sin and this is one of the verses in the Bible that shows us that it is. Of course it must be explained together with other verses and Church teachings about how we can be forgiven of sin if we repent.

Hey there  :wave:

I think that specific verse might not be a good one to use in this context because of the inaccuracy of the translation. There is debate as to what the Greek word in this passage actually refer to. Even if the passage is condemning all homosexual acts, it is doing so in reference to male homosexuality specifically. I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong. 

Edited May 24, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hi  :)

 

I have heard the argument that you are referring to...

 

I guess for me, since i'm Catholic, I'd go to the Church teachings to interpret themes like this in the Bible. It's been consistently taught that homosexual behaviors are sinful so I can't in good conscience argue against that.

 

Whenever sexual immorality is mentioned, there are various things that fall under that and homosexual actions would be one of them.

 

There's also Romans 1:26-27, which mentions both men and women:

 

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Rom. 1:26–27).

 

Edited May 24, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[LinaSt.Cecilia2772]

For example... Our Lord says that homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God. (the Church says homosexuals here refers to those who consent to it, since sin is in in the will, not those who don't consent and are chaste, same with adulterers: not those who are tempted to adultery, but those who commit it).

 

Your post below does not add up with the bolded statement in your post above.

 

It does come off as judgmental, and I agree with Lil Red that if some secular people read it they wouldn't even bother to continue reading the post after the first sentence. It's the absoluteness of the statement that comes off as judgmental, the "will not inherit the Kingdom of God" part, as if reconciliation and God's love almost don't exist.

 

 

I was going to leave but maybe I should reply to this post.....

 

Firstly I wasn't talking about "people who have sinned in this thread". I'm a person who has sinned in this thread. I wasn't even talking about anyone in particular.

 

I was saying only what the Church says - not about particular individuals - but about the fact that certain sins lead to hell if not repented of.

 

It's not judging to say that sin is sin... judging would be saying something like this: "you're going to hell because you committed fornication!" That would be judgement because I have no way of knowing if the person would repent, or has repented, and in any case I actually don't go around telling people they're "going to hell". God is their judge. I wasn't talking about particular people but about sins, and mentioning the verse, which is very clear, about the importance of avoiding these sins, and the consequences of them if unrepented. Many people today don't think that homosexual behavior is a sin and this is one of the verses in the Bible that shows us that it is. Of course it must be explained together with other verses and Church teachings about how we can be forgiven of sin if we repent.

 

You may not have meant it to come off as you in particular judging individuals, but it came off that way. With every post you try to clarify, it seems to change and not add up. Please be careful when posting in threads that involve stuff like this. It's very sensitive, and people can get hurt easily if things are unclear.

[cappie]

 

You may not have meant it to come off as you in particular judging individuals, but it came off that way. With every post you try to clarify, it seems to change and not add up. Please be careful when posting in threads that involve stuff like this. It's very sensitive, and people can get hurt easily if things are unclear.

 

Posted before but bears repeating: This doesn't mean that we are to turn a blind eye to things that may be foreign or hard to understand or accept, but seeing through them and beyond them to the person, with all their feelings and sufferings.  This manner of seeing others allows them to realize they are loved. And love makes it possible for them to improve.

 

This is how Christ looks at you and me. It is a glance that cares, and therefore also makes a difference.