Non-habited Communities.

[Little Flower]

While yes, I have practical reasons for wanting to join a community that wears a habit such as not having to worry about what to wear everyday, it's not about that or how the habit looks. It IS about how the sisters serve God, and I know God isn't calling me to serve Him how I have experienced sisters who don't wear habits do. I know not all communities that don't wear habits are like the ones I know, but even the ones (again, in my experience) that aren't dying out because all the sisters are old are not what I'm drawn to as communities. Community life is important to me, so I don't want to live in an apartment with one other sister, for example. Living with one other sister is a type of community and of course they have contact with other sisters, but it's not the type of community life I'm drawn to. There are communities of habited sisters who have similar arrangements at their mission convents, and I'm not any more drawn to them because they wear habits.

 

Whether communities wear a habit or not, or a modified habit, can tell you something about them though that would be a stupid place to stop, and what it tells you isn't that one is good and the others bad but that they're different. Someone who prefers a community that wears the habit isn't automatically narrow minded or judgmental any more than someone who prefers the Franciscan charism over Dominican. If that person goes around saying that sisters who don't wear habits, or Dominicans, aren't real sisters, that's the problem.

 

On another note, I'm pretty sure your comment is a logical fallacy--a straw man argument. You oversimplified the points of those who like habits to the only reason we like them is that they're pretty, therefore we don't care that or how sisters serve God.

Good point - I tried to props you but I'm out :(

 

A lot (well really 99.9999999%) of the time an order not wearing habits is a sign that they are really liberal and stuff... so it really should be a warning sign.

 

And I definitely am attracted to orders that have a real community (like you said more than just a couple women in an apartment)

[the171]

No, LF. There are many more orthodox religious communities without the habit than you so blatantly assume.

[Thijs]

I don't think there a lot of religious non-habited communities that is 100% faithful to the teachings of the Church. I only knew Apostles of Interior Life, Missionaries of God's Love sisters, Servant's of God's Love and Society Devoted to the Sacred Heart.

 

If I am going to give advice I would either have someone discerning to choose over them rather than the CMRI or the those belonging to Society of St Pius X which is truly habited.

 

I would also advice those who are discerning in religious life to consider joining a congregation which some prominent sisters is attacking the Church upfront especially if those in-charge in formation questions the heart of the Church teaching like non-ordination of women or contraception no matter how good some of is members are doing in its apostolate.

 

I agree that the habit is negotiable it depends on where God call's you to be. but the fidelity of the Church teaching is not. If one sister in a community told you that she is for women's ordination or that it is for couple to practice contraception, find another community, they are not worth your time.

 

[Pax_et bonum]

No, LF. There are many more orthodox religious communities without the habit than you so blatantly assume.

I hope you weren't trying to be rude. LF and I are pretty close geographically, and there aren't any orthodox communities without the habit anywhere near us while there are orthodox religious communities with the habit. It may be necessary to charitably correct someone, but you can't blame a person for her experience. I'm glad you know orthodox non-habited sisters, but not everyone has that opportunity. If you knew the communities I know, you might run the other way from them too and their heretical beliefs on women priests, euthanasia, and I'm forgetting what else that was told me plainly by a member of the community who believes them. While I know that is not an isolated case of heresy, if that's the proper term, I have also met very sweet, very old sisters in one community who dedicated their lives to God in an admirable way by serving the poor on the other side of the world. I actually really like the spirituality of that community, and they do such great work. There's not a few of us who hope that as the sisters of the 70s die, there will be a revival of orthodoxy; it's already started happening with the priestly branch.

[the171]

Actually, no. I don't have any orthodox unhabited religious communities in my area. No, I was not being rude. Assumptions are assumptions no matter where you are.

[Little Flower]

I don't think there a lot of religious non-habited communities that is 100% faithful to the teachings of the Church. I only knew Apostles of Interior Life, Missionaries of God's Love sisters, Servant's of God's Love and Society Devoted to the Sacred Heart.

 

If I am going to give advice I would either have someone discerning to choose over them rather than the CMRI or the those belonging to Society of St Pius X which is truly habited.

 

I would also advice those who are discerning in religious life to consider joining a congregation which some prominent sisters is attacking the Church upfront especially if those in-charge in formation questions the heart of the Church teaching like non-ordination of women or contraception no matter how good some of is members are doing in its apostolate.

 

I agree that the habit is negotiable it depends on where God call's you to be. but the fidelity of the Church teaching is not. If one sister in a community told you that she is for women's ordination or that it is for couple to practice contraception, find another community, they are not worth your time.

 

While yes I think the habit is a nice thing, I would NEVER consider joining a SSPX order and I doubt anyone else on here would either. I was referring to liberal vs. orthodox orders.

 

No, LF. There are many more orthodox religious communities without the habit than you so blatantly assume.

 

I was exaggerating to make a point but what Pax et bonum said is true.

 

I hope you weren't trying to be rude. LF and I are pretty close geographically, and there aren't any orthodox communities without the habit anywhere near us while there are orthodox religious communities with the habit. It may be necessary to charitably correct someone, but you can't blame a person for her experience. I'm glad you know orthodox non-habited sisters, but not everyone has that opportunity. If you knew the communities I know, you might run the other way from them too and their heretical beliefs on women priests, euthanasia, and I'm forgetting what else that was told me plainly by a member of the community who believes them. While I know that is not an isolated case of heresy, if that's the proper term, I have also met very sweet, very old sisters in one community who dedicated their lives to God in an admirable way by serving the poor on the other side of the world. I actually really like the spirituality of that community, and they do such great work. There's not a few of us who hope that as the sisters of the 70s die, there will be a revival of orthodoxy; it's already started happening with the priestly branch.

Yeah I don't think I know of a single unhabited but still faithful community anywhere near us

[Little Flower]

I don't think there a lot of religious non-habited communities that is 100% faithful to the teachings of the Church. I only knew Apostles of Interior Life, Missionaries of God's Love sisters, Servant's of God's Love and Society Devoted to the Sacred Heart.

 

If I am going to give advice I would either have someone discerning to choose over them rather than the CMRI or the those belonging to Society of St Pius X which is truly habited.

 

I would also advice those who are discerning in religious life to consider joining a congregation which some prominent sisters is attacking the Church upfront especially if those in-charge in formation questions the heart of the Church teaching like non-ordination of women or contraception no matter how good some of is members are doing in its apostolate.

 

I agree that the habit is negotiable it depends on where God call's you to be. but the fidelity of the Church teaching is not. If one sister in a community told you that she is for women's ordination or that it is for couple to practice contraception, find another community, they are not worth your time.

 

While yes I think the habit is a nice thing, I would NEVER consider joining a SSPX order and I doubt anyone else on here would either. I was referring to liberal vs. orthodox orders.

 

No, LF. There are many more orthodox religious communities without the habit than you so blatantly assume.

 

I was exaggerating to make a point but what Pax et bonum said is true.

 

I hope you weren't trying to be rude. LF and I are pretty close geographically, and there aren't any orthodox communities without the habit anywhere near us while there are orthodox religious communities with the habit. It may be necessary to charitably correct someone, but you can't blame a person for her experience. I'm glad you know orthodox non-habited sisters, but not everyone has that opportunity. If you knew the communities I know, you might run the other way from them too and their heretical beliefs on women priests, euthanasia, and I'm forgetting what else that was told me plainly by a member of the community who believes them. While I know that is not an isolated case of heresy, if that's the proper term, I have also met very sweet, very old sisters in one community who dedicated their lives to God in an admirable way by serving the poor on the other side of the world. I actually really like the spirituality of that community, and they do such great work. There's not a few of us who hope that as the sisters of the 70s die, there will be a revival of orthodoxy; it's already started happening with the priestly branch.

Yeah I don't think I know of a single unhabited but still faithful community anywhere near us

[Spem in alium]

:judge:

 

A lot (well really 99.9999999%) of the time an order not wearing habits is a sign that they are really liberal and stuff... so it really should be a warning sign.

 

What exactly do you mean by your usage of the word "liberal"?

I'm not going to pretend that I know where you're coming from with this, but please do not make those kinds of assumptions. Many religious communities in my country are unhabited, and some of them happen to be exceptionally faithful and true to the Church - including the one I'm discerning with at this moment.

 

I don't think there a lot of religious non-habited communities that is 100% faithful to the teachings of the Church. I only knew Apostles of Interior Life, Missionaries of God's Love sisters, Servant's of God's Love and Society Devoted to the Sacred Heart.

 

I agree that the habit is negotiable it depends on where God call's you to be. but the fidelity of the Church teaching is not. If one sister in a community told you that she is for women's ordination or that it is for couple to practice contraception, find another community, they are not worth your time.

I have heard good things about them.

 

Just wondering about your last statement: are you suggesting that only an unhabited sister would be in support of those things? I'm just wondering and interested in your opinion.

 

Yeah I don't think I know of a single unhabited but still faithful community anywhere near us

 

How exactly would you define "faithful"? It may seem clear, but I've heard varied definitions.

[Little Flower]

:judge:

 

 

What exactly do you mean by your usage of the word "liberal"?

I'm not going to pretend that I know where you're coming from with this, but please do not make those kinds of assumptions. Many religious communities in my country are unhabited, and some of them happen to be exceptionally faithful and true to the Church - including the one I'm discerning with at this moment.

 

I have heard good things about them.

 

Just wondering about your last statement: are you suggesting that only an unhabited sister would be in support of those things? I'm just wondering and interested in your opinion.

 

 

How exactly would you define "faithful"? It may seem clear, but I've heard varied definitions.

 

Personally, when I say faithful, I mean that they believe in everything that the Church teaches and don't believe or teach anything contrary. 

 

Also, I might use it to refer to people who place (imho) too much emphasis on "peace and justice" to the exclusion of everything else. For example, one community I looked into said that one of their primary missions was to end nuclear war. Excuse me? Thats not the job of a religious community, thats a political thing. And being too into green stuff instead of religious stuff too. While there are certainly habited communities who are this way (or SSPX communities that are waayyyy too far to the other side of the spectrum and actually separated from the Church) it is by and large unhabited communites. I have found at least where I am the the VAST majority of unhabited communites are like this. So if its different where you are, then I guess you don't have to make those assumptions when you come across unhabited nuns, but its not like that for me.

 

Also, I never said that every unhabited community is unfaithful. I'm sure there are many that are excellent (although unfortunately I personally have never come across one) I'm just saying you have to be wary because a large number of them are extremely liberal.

 

Like I said previously, I'm trying to be more open to communities who maybe are a little less conservative in their habits (when I say that I just mean in terms of whether or not they have modified or abandoned the habit, nothing else). I will actually be visiting a community with a very modified habit who frequently when they are doing different things wear no habit at all. So I'm not completely hating on unhabited communities. I'm just saying it can frequently be a warning sign and you need to be careful.

[beatitude]

Personally, when I say faithful, I mean that they believe in everything that the Church teaches and don't believe or teach anything contrary. 

 

Also, I might use it to refer to people who place (imho) too much emphasis on "peace and justice" to the exclusion of everything else. For example, one community I looked into said that one of their primary missions was to end nuclear war. Excuse me? Thats not the job of a religious community, thats a political thing. And being too into green stuff instead of religious stuff too.

 

There isn't always a clear-cut distinction between the religious and the political. Plenty of people would say that the work done by the Sisters of Life is political, but would you ever write, "They want to end abortion. Excuse me? That's not the job of a religious community, that's a political thing"?

 

Nunsense has already described how as a woman with very limited experience of religious life, she decided that she knew better than the sister who was giving her spiritual direction, and broke off some valuable direction because she felt that the sister's community didn't have the right ideas and attitudes. I would be careful about telling religious communities what their job should and shouldn't be, as they are going to have a far better understanding of what they do and why they do it than a woman who has never lived their life. There are many, many different needs in the world today, and this is reflected in the Church's diversity of missions. In Hiroshima and Nagasaki there are still people who are ill and disabled because of the bombs that were dropped over half a century ago. Babies were born with severe congenital problems because of how the radiation affected pregnant women. Nuclear accidents such as the one at Chernobyl pose similar huge risks - a whole city had to be abandoned, lives were lost, people developed illnesses like leukemia, the rate of foetal abnormalities shot right up. How does fighting to reduce the risk of nuclear war make a community unfaithful to the Church? Such a mission says nothing about the religious orthodoxy of these women. All it says is that they are engaging in work that you as a laywoman don't think they should be prioritising, and that really doesn't make them unfaithful.

[Spem in alium]

Personally, when I say faithful, I mean that they believe in everything that the Church teaches and don't believe or teach anything contrary. 

 

Also, I might use it to refer to people who place (imho) too much emphasis on "peace and justice" to the exclusion of everything else. For example, one community I looked into said that one of their primary missions was to end nuclear war. Excuse me? Thats not the job of a religious community, thats a political thing. And being too into green stuff instead of religious stuff too. While there are certainly habited communities who are this way (or SSPX communities that are waayyyy too far to the other side of the spectrum and actually separated from the Church) it is by and large unhabited communites. I have found at least where I am the the VAST majority of unhabited communites are like this. So if its different where you are, then I guess you don't have to make those assumptions when you come across unhabited nuns, but its not like that for me.

 

Also, I never said that every unhabited community is unfaithful. I'm sure there are many that are excellent (although unfortunately I personally have never come across one) I'm just saying you have to be wary because a large number of them are extremely liberal.

 

Like I said previously, I'm trying to be more open to communities who maybe are a little less conservative in their habits (when I say that I just mean in terms of whether or not they have modified or abandoned the habit, nothing else). I will actually be visiting a community with a very modified habit who frequently when they are doing different things wear no habit at all. So I'm not completely hating on unhabited communities. I'm just saying it can frequently be a warning sign and you need to be careful.

 

I see. Thank you for explaining what you meant. :)

 

As beatitude has said, oftentimes it can be difficult to separate religion and politics. The non-habited community I'm interested in does a lot of work with refugees and asylum seekers and had a strong presence in Japan following WWII. To someone unaware with their mission, it may seem like a very political venture, or at least one separated from a religious context - and the fact that they don't wear a habit could make such conclusions seem even more strong. But in fact, it connects right to the heart of their Benedictine values. The same could be argued with habited communities doing a similar kind of work. 

 

But you do not HAVE to make assumptions. This is the whole point of my thread. I can now, more than ever, see the value of being open - I arrived at this understanding as a result of my own doing and from what has been posted here. The world is full of assumptions, and from what I've seen they tend to do more harm than good and be more wrong than right. But that is my own conclusion. So why not try being more open? It may end up that the non-habited communities you come across are the way you assume. But not all are that way, and this is something I can attest to. That's why it's very, very important to be open. Be cautious if you need to be, but don't live a life based on assumed rather than tested conclusions. 

[Thijs]

Nunsense has already described how as a woman with very limited experience of religious life, she decided that she knew better than the sister who was giving her spiritual direction, and broke off some valuable direction because she felt that the sister's community didn't have the right ideas and attitudes. I would be careful about telling religious communities what their job should and shouldn't be, as they are going to have a far better understanding of what they do and why they do it than a woman who has never lived their life. There are many, many different needs in the world today, and this is reflected in the Church's diversity of missions. In Hiroshima and Nagasaki there are still people who are ill and disabled because of the bombs that were dropped over half a century ago. Babies were born with severe congenital problems because of how the radiation affected pregnant women. Nuclear accidents such as the one at Chernobyl pose similar huge risks - a whole city had to be abandoned, lives were lost, people developed illnesses like leukemia, the rate of foetal abnormalities shot right up. How does fighting to reduce the risk of nuclear war make a community unfaithful to the Church? Such a mission says nothing about the religious orthodoxy of these women. All it says is that they are engaging in work that you as a laywoman don't think they should be prioritising, and that really doesn't make them unfaithful.

With what does make sense that thet should prioritise these these> what does these sisters know about this thing anyway? what is the importance of throwing vials of blood to the nuclear facilities? these doesn't make sense.. well if nuclear energy is bad, why don't we shut down all nuclear faclilites and let's see the good things that will happened to America? Makes sense?

Rally againt wetland, offshore drilling, another baloney...

 

these really shows how confused these sisters are.. out of touch of there charism and clearly displays lack of judgement and common sense.

and to think we should support them?
 

[Thijs]

:judge:

 

 

Just wondering about your last statement: are you suggesting that only an unhabited sister would be in support of those things? I'm just wondering and interested in your opinion.

 

Well are they not the list is quite too long, Sisters of Syt Joseph of Peace, Sinsinawa Dominicans, Sisters of Mercy America, Sisters of St Joseph of Carondolet, Sisters of Social Service, want me to add more :D

 

 

 

[Thijs]

nuclear war is aeons ago, believe me I know

[AccountDeleted]

Nunsense has already described how as a woman with very limited experience of religious life, she decided that she knew better than the sister who was giving her spiritual direction, and broke off some valuable direction because she felt that the sister's community didn't have the right ideas and attitudes. I would be careful about telling religious communities what their job should and shouldn't be, as they are going to have a far better understanding of what they do and why they do it than a woman who has never lived their life. There are many, many different needs in the world today, and this is reflected in the Church's diversity of missions. In Hiroshima and Nagasaki there are still people who are ill and disabled because of the bombs that were dropped over half a century ago. Babies were born with severe congenital problems because of how the radiation affected pregnant women. Nuclear accidents such as the one at Chernobyl pose similar huge risks - a whole city had to be abandoned, lives were lost, people developed illnesses like leukemia, the rate of foetal abnormalities shot right up. How does fighting to reduce the risk of nuclear war make a community unfaithful to the Church? Such a mission says nothing about the religious orthodoxy of these women. All it says is that they are engaging in work that you as a laywoman don't think they should be prioritising, and that really doesn't make them unfaithful.

With what does make sense that thet should prioritise these these> what does these sisters know about this thing anyway? what is the importance of throwing vials of blood to the nuclear facilities? these doesn't make sense.. well if nuclear energy is bad, why don't we shut down all nuclear faclilites and let's see the good things that will happened to America? Makes sense?

Rally againt wetland, offshore drilling, another baloney...

 

these really shows how confused these sisters are.. out of touch of there charism and clearly displays lack of judgement and common sense.

and to think we should support them?
 

 

 

Michael, I am sure your intentions are good and worthy, but in this thread there has been so much over generalization that it is difficult to feel that anyone is really listening to anyone else.

 

I mentioned a specific instance of a community that chooses to dress in secular clothes and to announce their religious state by wearing a lapel pin. I did not mention anywhere in my post that I support communities that break the law or go against the teachings of the Church, be they habit wearing or habitless.

 

As has been pointed out, some communities have a charism that promotes a particular social or political viewpoint (such as the Sisters of Life) while others are more general in their apostolate (such as nursing or teaching). What many have been trying to say in this thread - which keeps getting derailed by over generalizations to promote a particular viewpoint - is that the wearing or not wearing of the habit is not an what a person should be focusing on - but on the fidelity of the community to the Church and to their founder's vision and mission.

 

This topic is one that often polarizes viewpoints, and I know this because I was previously someone who looked first at the externals (such as habit) rather than at the essence of the life as it is lived. Just because a person does not know of or have a habitless community near them that is faithful to the teachings of the Magesterium, does not mean that these do not exist, or that those that do exist are in any way inferior to those who wear the habit. That is such an unchristian viewpoint (to judge a person or persons by their appearance rather than by their actions) that it really needs to be addressed most strongly. Jesus did not judge Matthew because he was a tax collector, or even the woman who was blatantly caught in adultery, so who are we to judge those women who have chosen to give up their lives to serve Him through His Church - most especially if we are not already living the same consecrated life?? The only people on this thread who really have a right to comment about the wearing of the habit in a knowledgeable way are those posters like Sr Marie, who are living the life.

 

I do understand that according to appearance, those women religious who are opposed to many Church teachings are more than likely to be communities that are not wearing a habit, so it would be easy to use fallacious logic like  

 

A) women religious who oppose Church teaching do not wear habits ...   therefore  

B) any women religious who do not wear habits must oppose Church teaching.  

 

kind of like

 

A) cows have four legs  ...  therefore 

B) any animal that has four legs is a cow.

 

The habit doesn't make the nun. I lived in a community where all the sisters wore a habit. And yet, not all of them were equally kind or charitable to each other all the time, and not all of the them had the same views on the world (believe it or not). In fact, one of them even told me that she thought the Vatican was full of a bunch of old men who tried to dominate women. Not something you would expect to hear in a Carmelite convent, is it? All I am saying is that if we let love be our guide, we can't go wrong. Assume the best unless the worst is shoved in your face and more often that not, you will find you are right. For those sisters who are currently at odds with the Church - let's not push them away even further by our words and actions.

 

Recently Our Holy Father recently said to priests at a morning Mass: Too many times we're "faith-checkers instead of faith-facilitators". When people come to church they should find an open door without having to pass through a "faith detector". And I think that could apply to religious sisters as well - too often we are 'habit checkers' when we should be doing all in our power to support and encourage our religious. Which one of us is so perfect that we have the right to pick up a stone? Not I, that's for sure.

 

My last word on this - I don't want to get involved in debates on VS. But I do think that this thread needed a little push back towards charity. All I ask is that those who have really strong viewpoints against habitless communities try not to over generalize about all religious sisters.

Edited May 27, 2013 by nunsense