Gay: Born That Way?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

My comment about it being possible to be born that way stems from a show I watched several years ago that documented a group of adults in some random rural area that had a high number of homosexual people. I can't recall where it was, or the name of the show. What I do remember was that they did a number of tests on the group of adults they were following and they discovered that a number of the gay women had, for lack of a better term, and anomaly or birth defect in their brains that caused a certain area of the brain that differs slightly, between men and women, in size and shape (can't remember which part) that made the physical make up of their brains to basically be a "male brain" rather than mirror what a woman's brain typically looks like. Maybe they don't want to be that way but they can't help it because their brain is literally wired differently.

 

That doesn't mean that I think that all gay people have some sort of birth defect that makes them gay. Far from it. I don't know why or how it happens to people. I believe that homosexuality can come from any number of factors and is not limited to or exclusive of being born that way.
 

 

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing! From my very limited knowledge on this subject, I would say the idea of there being a "gay gene" is losing ground. There is, however, evidence suggesting that the sexual preferences of a child may be decided in the womb. I agree with you that those who are born hetero are also able to develop a liking for the same sex. 

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/12/homosexuality-may-start-in-the-w.html

Edited May 15, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[dUSt]

Is sexual preference the same as other preferences? Isn't it just a function of the brain? A gay person is not physically different than a straight person are they? It's just how one's brain works. For example, as a kid, I loved vanilla ice cream and didn't like chocolate. As I get older, I am starting to prefer chocolate. I hated the taste of beer, now I love it. My taste buds did not physically change. My brain did, right? I use to be repulsed by red heads, but now I am beginning to like them. What changed?

 

All this to say, the human brain is utterly complex and open to manipulation--so I don't see how environment can not effect to what extent a person may embrace those tendencies.

 

Although, as far as the poll, I would err to the side of people being born gay, if that's how you want to say it. Just like some people are born with a natural ability to be artistic, or a natural ability to be great thinkers, or are better at sports, etc, etc. I do think everyone's brain is different from conception--in other words, a baby's brain doesn't start out as a completely blank slate.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Unknown certainly. Unknowable... Probably not. If I accept it as possible that there does exist a genetic reason, then that reason is probably not unknowable.

How about we say currently unknowable, but perhaps not always so?

 

No idea. I usually just pretend I know everything.

[Not The Philosopher]

Homosexuality is a complicated phenomenon, and exactly how it manifests itself will differ from individual to individual. So I doubt we'll hit upon a single explanation for it. The usual narrative, or at least the one that I'm familiar with through my own experiences is that of gradually becoming aware that your desires just not being in step with what's normal. How that plays out in the whole nature/nurture spectrum is going to differ.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

 

Is sexual preference the same as other preferences? Isn't it just a function of the brain? A gay person is not physically different than a straight person are they? It's just how one's brain works. For example, as a kid, I loved vanilla ice cream and didn't like chocolate. As I get older, I am starting to prefer chocolate. I hated the taste of beer, now I love it. My taste buds did not physically change. My brain did, right? I use to be repulsed by red heads, but now I am beginning to like them. What changed?

 

All this to say, the human brain is utterly complex and open to manipulation--so I don't see how environment can not effect to what extent a person may embrace those tendencies.

 

Although, as far as the poll, I would err to the side of people being born gay, if that's how you want to say it. Just like some people are born with a natural ability to be artistic, or a natural ability to be great thinkers, or are better at sports, etc, etc. I do think everyone's brain is different from conception--in other words, a baby's brain doesn't start out as a completely blank slate.

 

True. That might also explain the existence of forniphilia, acrotomophilia, emetophilia, telephone scatalogia, and other strange paraphilias. 

Edited May 16, 2013 by dUSt

[CatholicsAreKewl]

:pinch: 

Edited May 16, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[IcePrincessKRS]

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing! From my very limited knowledge on this subject, I would say the idea of there being a "gay gene" is losing ground. There is, however, evidence suggesting that the sexual preferences of a child may be decided in the womb. I agree with you that those who are born hetero are also able to develop a liking for the same sex. 

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/12/homosexuality-may-start-in-the-w.html

 

My knowledge on the subject is very limited as well. The "why/how" of it all has never really been a focus of discussion for me, usually it's the moral "choose to/not to" that comes up.

 

The show wasn't linking their homosexuality to any genetic component. From what I recall there was speculation that the difference in the brain development in those women was caused by chemical exposure from a nearby factory when they were in utero. They couldn't pinpoint exactly the cause, and I'm quite certain it was only some of the women. None of the gay men in the show had a similar anomaly. This was a good 8 years ago, so my memory of exact details is foggy, I only remember the general gist of the show and some of their findings.

[franciscanheart]

I dont think ANYONE would say that epigenetics DIRECTLY effects sexuality because the body is way more freaking complex than that haha!
And I dont believe that my post was implying such a thing, if it was my bad.  :spike:
I was merely pointing out that it is a new and interesting field of genetics that may explain social behavior. The whole idea in the nature vs nurture debate that nurture could actually have genetic implications is very interesting.
 
Epigenetics isnt something that is localized to a specific biological system in the body, it can happen anywhere and effect any gene. Methylation, Acetylation, or other various types of modifications dealing with histones and chromosomal density, can change the amount/rate at which a particular gene is transcribed.
It has been noted in mice to cause social changes in the offspring of those who were raised with either an attentive mother or inattentive mother rendering them more withdrawn than those raised by an attentive mother. 
 
But like I said, this IS a new field as Im sure you know so this is just the early stages of understanding. I dont think it is known for certain when/why these modifications happen in the genome but they do know that it DOES happen.
 
I think its wicked cool!  :woot:

I think my knee-jerk reaction is that we shouldn't pull epigenetics into the discussion for various reasons. I understand methylation, acetylation, etc. I was speaking out of the assumption that a child knows at 9 that he or she is gay. But then one thing we know is that some epigenetic modifications are passed from generation to generation. So maybe it's influencing some parts of the population? Then you have to wonder: what is the factor causing the mutation? IS MONSANTO BEHIND THIS?!


 

Many people would also choose not to be attracted to porn. Or chose not to be attracted to alcohol. Or a gazillion other things.
 
I think it's simplistic to say we are born with particular desires, because it implies there is nothing we can do about them.

  
Again, not addressing what to do with the inclination, just wondering if phatmassers believe gay people are born gay or choose to be. What implication you draw from my belief that gay people are born gay is your own business.

I will say though that I think it's unfair to discount science because it makes the argument too easy for those who would approve the homosexual lifestyle.

Is sexual preference the same as other preferences? Isn't it just a function of the brain? A gay person is not physically different than a straight person are they? It's just how one's brain works. For example, as a kid, I loved vanilla ice cream and didn't like chocolate. As I get older, I am starting to prefer chocolate. I hated the taste of beer, now I love it. My taste buds did not physically change. My brain did, right? I use to be repulsed by red heads, but now I am beginning to like them. What changed?
 
All this to say, I'm leaning towards maybe people are born with certain tendencies, but the human brain is utterly complex and open to manipulation--so I don't see how environment can not effect to what extent a person may embrace those tendencies.

Really excellent points. I am of the belief that most gay people are born with the inclinations or are predisposed to develop them. I do not, however, deny there may be some who claim to be homosexual who actually choose the lifestyle for some non-attraction-related reason(s), perhaps encompassing brain chemistry influenced by life experience and other outside factors.

[CrossCuT]

I think my knee-jerk reaction is that we shouldn't pull epigenetics into the discussion for various reasons.

We shouldnt use knew scientific understandings to further our knowledge on an unclear topic?

 

 

Does not compute.

 

*robot dance*

 

But in all seriousness, I disagree completely.  :pinch:

 

Maybe for this conversation by itself thats fine, but I am 1000% in favor of looking into all modes of evidence to understand our physical world more even if those avenues are new and not entirely understood. Thats why we science.  :paco: 

[franciscanheart]

We shouldnt use knew scientific understandings to further our knowledge on an unclear topic?


Does not compute.

*robot dance*

But in all seriousness, I disagree completely. :pinch:

Maybe for this conversation by itself thats fine, but I am 1000% in favor of looking into all modes of evidence to understand our physical world more even if those avenues are new and not entirely understood. Thats why we science. :paco:

*New.

[BigJon16]

Personally, as far as I've ever looked into the subject (which isn't a lot to begin with) here's what I've found: I don't think there is concrete evidence or "science" to say 100% either way. Possible a mix of the two, on a case to case basis. I think I've said that before.. 

 

 

IMHO: There is not enough concrete psychological/physical evidence to be able to pin point exactly what causes same-sex attractive tendencies. Every psychologist (some Catholic, some not) that I have ever heard on the subject has noted that SSA varies on a person to person basis.

 

 

 

:) 

[Papist]

I don't believe one is born gay. I do believe one maybe born with a predisposition. But the predisposition alone is no guarantee to make one gay. His/her environment plays a key role (such as relationship with dad and mom).

[brianthephysicist]

I am entirely agnostic

 

[Basilisa Marie]

I think human sexuality is a spectrum, and everyone falls on different places on that spectrum. I know some people who are so straight that they can't really tell if a person of the same sex is attractive or not, it just doesn't make sense.  I know people who are completely bisexual, attracted to both sexes equally.  I know others who are very, very much attracted to the same sex, and it's hard to see what makes the opposite sex attractive.  I think the number of people who are completely and totally "straight" is actually a lot smaller than one would think.  So theoretically, if I were 3/4 of the way toward "straight" on the spectrum, and was raised in an environment where it was only acceptable to express heterosexual attraction, I'd think I was completely straight.  But if I were raised in an environment where it was okay to be with whomever I wished, with no social preference for any particular kind of relationship, I might date mostly members of the opposite sex but some members of the same sex.  

 

So basically I think it's nature and nurture - we're born with whatever sexuality we have, but how it expresses itself can sometimes depend on our environment. 

[cappie]

My experience has been that people, who grow up with homosexual orientation, are likely to feel that somehow they are ‘different’. In my ministry I haven't met any one who chose to be gay. So I lean to the third proposition though I think it's not that simple. :think: At least not for me.

 

Discovering feelings for someone of the same sex is a confusing and alarming state.  For a young Christian, there is the added sense that somehow God has played a cruel trick on them.  Has he somehow made a mistake and put the wrong gender into the wrong body?  They wrestle with thoughts like, "why has he created me gay and then condemns me?”  And most of all, the question is consuming, "why don’t you answer me?  I have cried in the night and suffered alone in anguish.  Why don’t you just take this away from me?” 

 

Many people go on into adult years, denying what is happening on the inside.  Sometimes they marry.  Some  are told that the best thing they can do is marry and it will all come right.  But this is far from true. 

 

The answer is not in trying to fight and do what is right; it is in finding the love of God.  His love is the fulfillment for us.  This is what we are created for, to know God’s love and his grace.  His grace gives us the ability to take the long journey to wholeness.  His grace will walk us back through the confusion of our lives.  His love will lead us to truth, not just about God, but about ourselves too.   

There is no ‘magic’ formula that can do the trick. I believe Homosexual orientation is something that is threaded through a person’s life from very early years.  If God just took out the ‘gay’ in a moment of time, it would probably unravel the person, as the feelings and inclinations are so much part of the person.  But this doesn’t mean to say that there is no hope.  

 

People, who struggle and eventually give up, often have as their goal, the desire to be ‘straight’.  This goal sets a person up for failure.  Failure doesn’t mean that the Bible should be rewritten or the teaching of the Church is wrong.  The true answer has always been in the scriptures and the Magisterium.  The goal is to seek our God and to find the one who becomes our all.  When Jesus is the goal, he aligns us by his power to his Father's design for our lives.  His goal is  to walk toward his holy perfection.  Holiness is his aim. It's as simple and as complex as that. :unsure:

 

Finally I should add that one person whom I am close to put it "I also discovered that God’s love and grace were available for me as I learned to walk this new life, step by step, and day by day.”  He has had many years pass since  things happened in his life, and he would be first to say that it has been a challenge.  But it has been a challenge that has been met by the God who loved him right from the start.  "I have learned to respond to the pain of my wounds in non-sexual ways. I have also been healed of many of those wounds. I also learned to turn to God when I am tempted, and trust Him for all my needs.”      

 

 

 

  

Edited May 16, 2013 by cappie