Latin Mass (ef) Question Thread (aka: Hey, Nihil Et Alia!)

[ChristinaTherese]

So, I have questions. Possibly more than I'm about to ask in this post.

 

1) Why are the priest's vestments different in the EF and NO?

2) Why are the calendars different?

3) Has anyone else had problems remembering what's different when switching between rites? Or am I the only one who's started in Latin only to realize that she's at an NO Mass that is most assuredly not in Latin? (Okay, that's just to laugh at myself and have a little fun.)

 

But, mostly 1 and 2 have been bugging me a little. And I'm pretty sure that I can guess the answer to 2, it's just a bit annoying, hence asking it at all. So it's really mostly 1. More questions may well arise over time.

[MarysLittleFlower]

So, I have questions. Possibly more than I'm about to ask in this post.

 

1) Why are the priest's vestments different in the EF and NO?

2) Why are the calendars different?

3) Has anyone else had problems remembering what's different when switching between rites? Or am I the only one who's started in Latin only to realize that she's at an NO Mass that is most assuredly not in Latin? (Okay, that's just to laugh at myself and have a little fun.)

 

But, mostly 1 and 2 have been bugging me a little. And I'm pretty sure that I can guess the answer to 2, it's just a bit annoying, hence asking it at all. So it's really mostly 1. More questions may well arise over time.

 

Hi :) I attend an FSSP parish now which has the TLM so your thread caught my attention! However with me, I started with NO and then began attending TLM.

 

I'm not really sure why the priest's vestments are different...I think they must have changed with VII. Some things (like the maniple! for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniple_(vestment) were removed and generally the vestments were simplified. The pre-VII vestments have certain details that are symbolic.

 

The calendars are different because the TLM parishes follow the 1962 missal which is from before the calendar was revised. So for example, Ascension in Canada is moved to this Sunday, but in my parish they had it on Thursday. The Novus Ordo parishes follow the revised calendar where some feasts were moved to Sunday or moved around - I'm not exactly sure how many.. but since in the TLM parishes they follow the 1962 missal, they follow everything the way it was then, so for example women wear mantillas as I'm sure you know :)

 

What I find difficult to remember is when you stand/kneel etc because this is different and - I know you can look at the others in the church, but I still get lost sometimes lol, and I need to remind myself to never sit in the front pew :P

 

Sorry I wish I had more information! I just know it's because of VII or the changes that occured around that time/after.

 

God bless!

[Nihil Obstat]

For vestments it is a combination of things. The biggest thing you generally notice is the fiddleback chasuble. This is mostly just a stylistic choice, but the fiddleback style allows for more elaborate embroidery. Generally these days you see Gothic chasubles (and occasionally conical), which are more 'flowy'. In theory they can be very nice, very elegant, although more for the way in which they drape rather than the embroidery. But unfortunately there are tons of really ugly Gothic chasubles out there. So I guess you might call the fiddleback a minor repudiation of the general lowering in quality of vestments that occurred over the last few decades.

Besides the stylistic difference, the traditional Mass tends to use pieces that are no longer used in the Novus Ordo. The maniple is the main example of that, though a priest could use it today if he chose to do so. The cope falls into this category as well; at a traditional High Mass the priest will process in wearing the cope, because of the Asperges/Vidi Aquam before Mass, and he also wears the cope for liturgical things that are not the Mass. I guess you still see copes around occasionally, but certainly not commonly. I suppose you could lump the biretta in there as well, although strictly speaking it is not a liturgical item. Also the maniple is very rarely seen outside of traditional Masses these days, which is highly unfortunate. In my diocese one very rarely sees proper dalmatics. There are not all that many deacons, and they tend just to wear a stole over one shoulder without the dalmatic, also unfortunate in my opinion. I do not know if that is common elsewhere.

 

I have nothing to add on to Maryslittleflower's answer about the calendar. :)

 

In terms of #3, this will vary obviously for everyone, but for me... yes and no. For a while I would occasionally get confused, but after a while as I got to understand the traditional Mass better, things just naturally made more sense. These days the only times I get confused are if there are unique rubrics for a special feast day. 

I rarely attend the Novus Ordo these days, but when I do it is a bit... well, strange is not the right word exactly, but it does feel different to me now. In all honesty it mostly feels extremely condensed to me, and the prayers of the faithful are particularly jarring, and occasionally I forget there is a second reading. But the major elements occur in the same places, and the words are similar, so it is not like I do not recognize it anymore.

Actually, the biggest difference I notice, and I have a feeling most people would not notice this to the same extent, is that the Propers (besides the Epistle and Gospel) feel rather de-emphasized in the Novus Ordo. That is my perception at least, though I have not spent much time thinking about it.

[Nihil Obstat]

If you have any more questions I will do my very best to answer them, or at least find someone who can.  :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

wow i just realized again how much there is to know about vestments :D like Gothic vs fiddleback...

[Nihil Obstat]

wow i just realized again how much there is to know about vestments :D like Gothic vs fiddleback...

Also conical. Conical is super cool, but easy to screw up really badly.
 
Good:

 
Oh-so-very bad:

 
 
Very appropriately named: How to properly or improperly wear a conical chasuble.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

.The Novus Ordo parishes follow the revised calendar where some feasts were moved to Sunday or moved around - I'm not exactly sure how many.. but since in the Traditional Latin Mass parishes they follow the 1962 missal, they follow everything the way it was then, so for example women wear mantillas as I'm sure you know :)

 

 

 

What i was taught is that some nations have been given special permission to hold feast days on sundays, i guess so as no one misses it. But the latin mass is still valid, and yes they hold many of there feast days during the week, i think my local fssp holds these after 5:30pm(6pm or 7pm i can't remember,) to give workers a chance to get to the obligated feast day. Also a really cool thing about my local fssp parish is they hold confession mon-sat after holy mass.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i said to a Latin priest "is the thing on the back of there vestments representing the holy trinity reigning down on the people, and also added that it probably wards of hexes aimed at him from behind while serving the alter, lol." he laughed and said there was a group called old Catholics that believed a similar thing, he never said my thinking was wrong. Also did you notice it is an upside down peace sign. I read somewhere or someone told me or in my madness thought it up, but i was lead to believe that the popular peace sign is a pagan bastardization of the trinity sign on the back of the Latin priests vestments, an attack deliberately aimed at straying Christians from the true peace of GOD.

[Nihil Obstat]

For vestments it is a combination of things. The biggest thing you generally notice is the fiddleback chasuble. This is mostly just a stylistic choice, but the fiddleback style allows for more elaborate embroidery. Generally these days you see Gothic chasubles (and occasionally conical), which are more 'flowy'. In theory they can be very nice, very elegant, although more for the way in which they drape rather than the embroidery. But unfortunately there are tons of really ugly Gothic chasubles out there. So I guess you might call the fiddleback a minor repudiation of the general lowering in quality of vestments that occurred over the last few decades.
Besides the stylistic difference, the traditional Mass tends to use pieces that are no longer used in the Novus Ordo. The maniple is the main example of that, though a priest could use it today if he chose to do so. The cope falls into this category as well; at a traditional High Mass the priest will process in wearing the cope, because of the Asperges/Vidi Aquam before Mass, and he also wears the cope for liturgical things that are not the Mass. I guess you still see copes around occasionally, but certainly not commonly. I suppose you could lump the biretta in there as well, although strictly speaking it is not a liturgical item. Also the maniple is very rarely seen outside of traditional Masses these days, which is highly unfortunate. In my diocese one very rarely sees proper dalmatics. There are not all that many deacons, and they tend just to wear a stole over one shoulder without the dalmatic, also unfortunate in my opinion. I do not know if that is common elsewhere.
 
I have nothing to add on to Maryslittleflower's answer about the calendar. :)
 
In terms of #3, this will vary obviously for everyone, but for me... yes and no. For a while I would occasionally get confused, but after a while as I got to understand the traditional Mass better, things just naturally made more sense. These days the only times I get confused are if there are unique rubrics for a special feast day. 
I rarely attend the Novus Ordo these days, but when I do it is a bit... well, strange is not the right word exactly, but it does feel different to me now. In all honesty it mostly feels extremely condensed to me, and the prayers of the faithful are particularly jarring, and occasionally I forget there is a second reading. But the major elements occur in the same places, and the words are similar, so it is not like I do not recognize it anymore.
Actually, the biggest difference I notice, and I have a feeling most people would not notice this to the same extent, is that the Propers (besides the Epistle and Gospel) feel rather de-emphasized in the Novus Ordo. That is my perception at least, though I have not spent much time thinking about it.

I realized at Mass today that I misspoke slightly in this post. :smile3:
 
When I said "Also the maniple is very rarely seen outside of traditional Masses these days, which is highly unfortunate,"
 
What I actually meant was  "Also the humeral veil is very rarely seen [...]" You do see it, particularly if there is exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, or a Eucharistic procession, but it is much more common in traditionally celebrated contexts. For that matter, it is actually used in every solemn high Mass, "by the subdeacon, who holds the paten with it from the close of the Offertory until after the Pater Noster", as well as at pontifical Masses.
It is also my very favourite vestment, so it is unfortunate that I misspoke. :sweat:
 

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Very appropriately named: How to properly or improperly wear a conical chasuble.

Interesting - the improper is the way priests wear the chasuble in the Byzantine liturgy (and in that context would not be improper).

Edited May 13, 2013 by thedude

[Nihil Obstat]

Interesting - the improper is the way priests wear the chasuble in the Byzantine liturgy (and in that context would not be improper).

Is it even the same style chasuble? The conical style strikes me as rather distinctively western-monastic, so I have to wonder then if whatever Byzantine chasuble you might be thinking of is actually a distinct style that happens to have some similarities.

[Nihil Obstat]

Is it even the same style chasuble? The conical style strikes me as rather distinctively western-monastic, so I have to wonder then if whatever Byzantine chasuble you might be thinking of is actually a distinct style that happens to have some similarities.

Kind of like how the Gothic chausuble is similar to conical, but a distinct style in and of itself.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Not the same, but it is worn with arms coming out the front:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phelonion

[Nihil Obstat]

Not the same, but it is worn with arms coming out the front:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phelonion

You would not be able to wear that like a conical chasuble if you wanted to. :smile3: There is hardly any material in the front.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Maybe my memory has faded, but I remember seeing Phelonion with a lot more "slack" in front. Very beautiful vestment. I always thought it looked uncomfortable though!

Edited May 13, 2013 by thedude