Feelings Of Intense Frustration

[Nihil Obstat]

"As generously as possible" meaning "as few as possible"?

Yeah, 200 seems like it'd be impossible anywhere but a huge city with lots of Catholics. Lafayette has a MEF once a month. When I get there, I want to put a lot of work into getting it more often.

Not in so many words, but I believe that has been the intention, and I *think* that Universae Ecclesiae also supported a generous interpretation.

[Basilisa Marie]

Well, ideally you'd be shopping around at all the local parishes to get all the people together who want an EF mass, so hopefully you'd get at least a couple dozen. And if a priest was already well versed in it, all you'd need is the okay from the bishop to have one, so you'd probably need even fewer people. 

[Lil Red]

Sometimes I feel sad about all the witty comments I must miss when I skip threads. :blush:

 

:pinch: we heard you the first time. 

[beaverman]

 . . .  my priest had to ask permission for us to kneel, otherwise we'd be flouting his authority and that's sinful.

 

 . . . .  You can't just go over his head and do what you want because that's how they do it in Rome. :)

 

So is whatever the bishop declares as the norm makes it objectively true? If the bishop declared the norm as standing on our heads during the consecration, then should we obey him? What is the bishop basing his beliefs on? Shouldn't it be by the standards of the Vatican and not his personal opinion?

 

Really? Kneeling during the consecration is sinful just because a bishop disagrees with it? I find that a little ridiculous. I can't imagine being in purgatory for kneeling and refusing to stand during the consecration.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

What beaverman said.

[Norseman82]

Wait... using clay vessels is liturgical abuse? I admit I didn't like it when I saw it, but I didn't know it's verboten. Is it?

 

Because they hold the Body and Blood of Christ, they should be neither porous nor breakable.

[jim111]

How to Establish theTraditional Latin Mass at Your Parish

I am working on this in my home parish. I created Facebook group called Sandusky Latin Mass Society, and already have 28 people singed up.

I also work really hard to get people in campus to go to the TLM, few people actually go, but I have a lot of people who gave me there name and email for the signup list. As long as your positive about it, you should be able to easily get 100 signatures.

 

[Basilisa Marie]

So is whatever the bishop declares as the norm makes it objectively true? If the bishop declared the norm as standing on our heads during the consecration, then should we obey him? What is the bishop basing his beliefs on? Shouldn't it be by the standards of the Vatican and not his personal opinion?

 

Really? Kneeling during the consecration is sinful just because a bishop disagrees with it? I find that a little ridiculous. I can't imagine being in purgatory for kneeling and refusing to stand during the consecration.

 

It doesn't make it objectively true, and kneeling in itself is obviously not sinful.

 

But the fact is that when we disobey our bishops, we're disobeying Christ.  EVEN IF we disagree with our bishop's decision.  It's not their person or their decision that is holy, it is the authority that is invested in them, the authority that comes from Christ.  A bishop has legitimate authority over his own diocese, and if I reside in his diocese, I am bound to obey him.  If I don't, I'm placing myself above the Church's authority and effectively saying that apostolic succession doesn't matter. 

 

How can we tell others to obey the pope in large things if we can't even handle obeying our own bishop in small things?  Don't we tell liberal Catholics to just trust in the Church's authority on matters that the liberal Catholic has trouble understanding? How can we tell them to do that if we can't even handle doing a simple liturgical posture we don't prefer until we get permission to do the one we want?  

[beaverman]

But the fact is that when we disobey our bishops, we're disobeying Christ.  EVEN IF we disagree with our bishop's decision.  It's not their person or their decision that is holy, it is the authority that is invested in them, the authority that comes from Christ.  A bishop has legitimate authority over his own diocese, and if I reside in his diocese, I am bound to obey him.  If I don't, I'm placing myself above the Church's authority and effectively saying that apostolic succession doesn't matter. 

 

 

But Shouldn't his authority should only be used to reaffirm the traditions and teachings of the Church and not his personal judgments? What bounds does his authority have?

 

"Don't we tell liberal Catholics to just trust in the Church's authority on matters that the liberal Catholic has trouble understanding?"

 

I think that's the point I'm making. The Church has stated that kneeling during the consecration is the norm. Why would anyone want to change that?

[GeorgiiMichael]

But Shouldn't his authority should only be used to reaffirm the traditions and teachings of the Church and not his personal judgments? What bounds does his authority have?

 

"Don't we tell liberal Catholics to just trust in the Church's authority on matters that the liberal Catholic has trouble understanding?"

 

I think that's the point I'm making. The Church has stated that kneeling during the consecration is the norm. Why would anyone want to change that?

 

It doesn't matter why someone would want to change that. If they're your bishop, you need to obey them because of their authority.  You can petition them to change it, and you can petition the Vatican to get them to change it, but until the bishop has changed his ruling, you need to obey the bishop.

[KnightofChrist]

It doesn't make it objectively true, and kneeling in itself is obviously not sinful.

 

But the fact is that when we disobey our bishops, we're disobeying Christ.  EVEN IF we disagree with our bishop's decision.  It's not their person or their decision that is holy, it is the authority that is invested in them, the authority that comes from Christ.  A bishop has legitimate authority over his own diocese, and if I reside in his diocese, I am bound to obey him.  If I don't, I'm placing myself above the Church's authority and effectively saying that apostolic succession doesn't matter. 

 

How can we tell others to obey the pope in large things if we can't even handle obeying our own bishop in small things?  Don't we tell liberal Catholics to just trust in the Church's authority on matters that the liberal Catholic has trouble understanding? How can we tell them to do that if we can't even handle doing a simple liturgical posture we don't prefer until we get permission to do the one we want?  

 

It is NOT disobedience to kneel during or after communion, even if Bishops say otherwise. Bishops and priests do not have the legitimate authority to require/force the faithful to stand while receiving or after communion.

 

"...while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops' Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion".  - Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

 

 

 

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem. The mens is that that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWCLAR.HTM
http://www.adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html

 

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=2796

 

--

 

"There is no rule from Rome that everybody must stand during Holy Communion. There is no such rule from Rome. So, after people have received Communion, they can stand, they can kneel, they can sit. But a bishop in his diocese or bishops in a country could say that they recommend standing or kneeling. They could. It is not a law from Rome. They could -- but not impose it. Perhaps they could propose. But those who want to sit or kneel or stand should be left reasonable freedom." - Francis Cardinal Arinze

 

http://www.adoremus.org/1003Arinze.html

--

 

GIRM 43
"They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed."

 

 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

KnightofChrist, props. I'm out. But major props. 

[Basilisa Marie]

Nope. 

 

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/can-the-bishop-require-the-congregation-to-stand-after-the-lamb-of-god

 

Full Question

 

The bishop of my diocese said that everyone should remain standing after the Agnus Dei and should continue to stand until everyone has received Communion. Can he do this?

 

Answer

 

There are two separate issues here. First, a bishop in the United States can require that congregations in his diocese remain standing after the Agnus Dei until the reception of Communion. If your bishop has mandated that the congregations should remain standing after the Agnus Dei, then you should stand as has been directed:

 

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan bishop determines otherwise. (GIRM 43, emphasis added)

 

Second, the bishop does not determine a congregant’s posture after the congregant has received Communion. After each congregant has received Communion, the congregant may choose to stand, sit, or kneel. The congregant does not have to wait for the rest of the congregation to receive before assuming the posture of his choice. If you wish to sit or kneel at this point, the choice is yours. In 2003, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) released a response upholding this. The question-and-answer can be read on the Web site of Adoremus (www.adoremus.org).

 

This response by the CDW has been thought by some to indicate that the bishop cannot mandate that the congregation remain standing after the Agnus Dei. This is not the case. The response was a clarification of number 43 of the GIRM, not a negation of it. This means that while the bishop can mandate standing until the individual reception of Communion, he does not mandate that individuals may not kneel after receiving Communion.

 

 

 

Michelle Arnold says I win.   :)

Edited May 3, 2013 by Basilisa Marie

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Cardinal Arinze, Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments says otherwise. 

 

I speak in reference to the first quote provided by KoC.

Edited May 3, 2013 by ToJesusMyHeart

[EmilyAnn]

Maybe I'm missing something but Basilisa Marie isn't actually talking about kneeling for receiving the Eucharist. She's talking about kneeling at other points in the Mass.