Is Nfp For All, Or Only For The Few In Specific Undesirable Circumstan

[beatitude]

Why, then, do we allow an infertile couple to get married? If I know I'm infertile, and my partner knows he's infertile, but we want to get married, the Church would not say 'no'. Or if a Catholic woman wants to marry a man who, say, has already had a vasectomy, the Church would not say 'no'.

 

Why?

 

I think there is a difference between not being able to have children through no fault of your own, and deliberately deciding that you will never conceive a child even though medically you're OK.

 

What is important in a marriage - in any vocation, really - is generosity of spirit. If an infertile couple marries, they are embracing one another in love, even though they have limitations that other couples might not face. They will now work together to give and receive love in spite of those limitations. Maybe they will be extra active in the parish. Maybe they will foster a disturbed child who has no other home to go to. Maybe they will just be a really fun sleepover destination for beloved nieces and nephews. And maybe their infertility is just a temporary cross, and eventually they will be blessed with children, as Elizabeth and Zechariah were and Abraham and Sarah - after they have received the trust and faith that God is working to give them through their circumstances. In all these situations, the couple is reaching for holiness, trying to be as generous and self-giving as possible. They are holding nothing back. They are offering everything they have.

 

If you are a perfectly healthy couple and you want to get married, but you decide that you just don't want any children, you are holding something back. That is the difference. Of course, there is no guarantee that a married couple will conceive any children even if they don't practise NFP and have no known fertility problems. That's OK. Our faith doesn't say 'thou shalt have 4.6 children exactly'. We are just called to live generously within our particular vocation, and this means embracing possibility. This is a sacred thing.

 

If you do not feel as though you ever want children, and this is a steady feeling that is present throughout your prayer and discernment, then the possibility is that marriage may not be the right way for you to go in life.

[jim111]

If you don't understand how a woman could use NFP to become pregnant, then you don't understand NFP.

 

If you think a woman can determine the date of conception by choosing the day she has sex, you don't understand human biology or how sex works.

 

Did you know - Sometimes a couple can have sex at the beginning of the week, and the resulting conception doesn't actually happen until the end of that week?

 

Were you given any sex education? I'm seriously asking. If you're fuzzy on the details there are a lot of non-explicit materials I can hook you up with.

 

NFP is fertility awareness, period, in fact I hate referring to it as NFP because it's doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with family planning.

 

If you mean having sex during the fertile times of a womans cycle, then that is clearly not what I am talking about, did you read the OP.

 

My comments were to address people who have relations at specific times to avoid having children.
 

Edited April 28, 2013 by jim111

[Basilisa Marie]

Look, the problem here I think is that you're assuming that the procreative purpose of sex is much more important than its unitive nature, which isn't true.  They are equally important, otherwise it would be ONLY moral to have sex when a woman is known to be fertile.  But that's not the case - a married couple can engage at any time in a woman's cycle. Even if a couple isn't using any kind of fertility awareness method to space children, if the wife is using ecological breastfeeding she'll be infertile for a long time after she gives birth - and it's moral for the couple to engage in relations then, too.  These cases help show us that the unitive nature of sex is just as important as the procreative nature, and the two can't ever be separated.  

 

And while the Church gives good guidelines on what constitutes a "serious reason," the truth of practical experience is that every couple is different, because every human being is unique. A serious reason for one couple may not be a serious reason for another, and this is OKAY.  What is important is that the couple prayerfully discern their serious reasons, often in consultation with a priest or spiritual director.   

 

For many people, living without any method of keeping track of when the wife is fertile and "accepting children as they come and letting God plan the size of our family" would actually be a source of temptation toward the sin of presumption.  There's a line between trusting in God and assuming God will hand you a job with a six figure salary and a nicely-sized house to support 20 children.  Nowadays it's much more expensive to raise children than in the past (I'm talking like decades and decades ago), and with modern medical advances nearly all children born to a couple would live into adulthood, whereas a century or two ago, depending on where you lived, that wasn't a sure thing.  It's not fair for us or prudent to automatically pass such harsh judgment on a couple's serious reason.  Instead our first instinct should be to charity, and assume that a couple has no or only a few children that there is a serious reason.  And frankly, that reason is most often none of our business. 

[Archaeology cat]

At its core, NFP is about knowing your body. For someone like me, with irregular cycles at any time and long periods of infertility due to breastfeeding, this is invaluable knowledge. We can then choose to use hat knowledge to conceive or avoid, or ignore any rules, as we discern. The Church, in Her wisdom, has not laid down rigid criteria for knowing when it is ok to use this knowledge to avoid, to my knowledge.

[Amppax]

Look, the problem here I think is that you're assuming that the procreative purpose of sex is much more important than its unitive nature, which isn't true.  They are equally important, otherwise it would be ONLY moral to have sex when a woman is known to be fertile.  But that's not the case - a married couple can engage at any time in a woman's cycle. Even if a couple isn't using any kind of fertility awareness method to space children, if the wife is using ecological breastfeeding she'll be infertile for a long time after she gives birth - and it's moral for the couple to engage in relations then, too.  These cases help show us that the unitive nature of sex is just as important as the procreative nature, and the two can't ever be separated.  

 

I'm not sure if the highlighted portions are quite true.  I'm trying to remember what I read in Casti Connubii but I think this contradicts that. As I recall, the procreative has primacy and is more important.  At the same time, the unitive aspect can't be downplayed, it is important.  

 

I really hate to just say this and run, but Finals week.  I'll try to come back to this with some actual quotes.  

 

Edit: I do agree that they can't be separated.  

Edited April 29, 2013 by Amppax

[Lil Red]

When you look at many health, communicative, and spiritual benefits that come from practicing NFP, it almost seems silly and possibly careless not to use it. Of course, I am referring to the practice of NFP in regards to women's health and a couple's family planning, whether choosing to have a child, not to have a child, or being entirely indifferent about it.

 

come now, let's not swing too far in the other direction. :) 

[Archaeology cat]

Very true, Red. Also, I think one can have a general idea of what her body is doing without charting. Maybe it's just that I charted for a while and even teach it, but I don't actually chart now but still know what's going on.

[jim111]

I'm not sure if the highlighted portions are quite true.  I'm trying to remember what I read in Casti Connubii but I think this contradicts that. As I recall, the procreative has primacy and is more important.  At the same time, the unitive aspect can't be downplayed, it is important.  

 

I really hate to just say this and run, but Finals week.  I'll try to come back to this with some actual quotes.  

 

Edit: I do agree that they can't be separated.  

Casti Cinnubii, Pius XI "59. Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning,when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin. Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved."

Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, 2241

 

The Purposes of Matrimony *

[Decree of the Holy Office, April 1, 1944]

"Certain publications concerning the purposes of matrimony, and their interrelationship and order, have come forth within these last years which either assert that the primary purpose of matrimony is not the generation of offspring, or that the secondary purposes are not subordinate to the primary purpose, but are independent of it.
 In these works different primary purposes of marriage are designated by other writers, as for example: the complement and personal perfection of the spouses through a complete mutual participation in life and action; mutual love and union of spouses to be nurtured and perfected by the psychic and bodily surrender of one's own person; and many other such things.
 In the same writings a sense is sometimes attributed to words in the current documents of the Church (as for example, primary, secondary purpose), which does not agree with these words according to the common usage by theologians.
 This revolutionary way of thinking and speaking aims to foster errors and uncertainties, to avoid which the Most Eminent and Very Reverend Fathers of this supreme Sacred Congregation, charged with the guarding of matters of faith and morals, in a plenary session, on Wednesday, the 28th of March, 1944, when the question was proposed to them "Whether the opinion of certain recent persons can be admitted, who either deny that the primary purpose of matrimony is the generation and raising of offspring, or teach that the secondary purposes are not essentially subordinate to the primary purpose, but are equally first and independent," have decreed that the answer must be: In the negative."

Denzinger, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, 2295

[Apotheoun]

Can you elaborate? When are the fasting times?

 

All married couples (and that includes a priest and his wife) are supposed to abstain from sexual relations during the Church's four fasting seasons, as well as on the weekly Wednesday and Friday fasts, and during the paschal season of Great and Holy Week. Married couples are also supposed to fast from marital relations during the 24 hours prior to the reception of Holy Communion.

 

 

The marital fast is about dedicating oneself to prayer, and is founded upon the teaching of St. Paul in scripture (1 Cor. 7:5).

[MIKolbe]

Married couples are also supposed to fast from marital relations during the 24 hours prior to the reception of Holy Communion.

 

this explains all the women at daily Mass.

[LouisvilleFan]

 

NFP is fertility awareness, period, in fact I hate referring to it as NFP because it's doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with family planning.

 

Maybe it's more accurate to refer to the specific method, i.e. Creighton Model. One of its functions is within NFP, but it goes beyond that.

[LouisvilleFan]

come now, let's not swing too far in the other direction. :)

 

I suspect you heard me say all couples should use NFP to plan every child. As Pius XIII says, this is not rarely the case, but Church teaching is clear that a grave reason is needed and I know all couples do not have grave reasons.

 

The reason I say all couples should use NFP is for the benefit of their health and knowledge about their fertility -- nothing to do with using NFP as contraception, which is Pius XIII is talking about in the quoted encyclical. A woman should know what her cycle is like, whether it's predictable or erratic, how her diet/sleep/etc. affects it, etc. Many women have some kind of fertility-related disorder that can go untreated or mistreated (especially with artificual hormone pills) until they start charting their cycle and learning exactly what their body is doing. My fiance has been charting for a few years in order to manage a condition that requires a fairly strict diet to keep her cycle predictable. I'm sure we all know someone who is prescribed birth control for something other than contraception... most of them could probably quit that prescription if they took the slightly more difficult route of charting and changed a few things about their lifestyle.

 

Bottom line is, we should be aware that there are many useful and potentially life-saving reasons to practice a method of NFP.... especially single women who might thing NFP is only for married couples.

 

Maybe a more holistic acronym is needed... NFA for Natural Fertility Awarness :)

[LouisvilleFan]

      When I say NFP, I mean when people use is having relations when the the woman is not fertile. I am not sure how this can be used to get pregnant. She can determin the date of conception by choosing the day she wants to sleep with her husband. As Pius XII stated, medical conditions are a valid reasonfor practicing NFP.

 

The other recent comments address our differing defintions of the term "NFP." The definition you provide is only one purpose for which a couple might use it.

 

For further research, I suggest Creighton Model and Napro Technology, where many uses of the Creighton Model are provided. You'll find there how a couple uses NFP to conceive and determine the date of conception (with more accuracy than their OB/GYN, because God is a genius).

[jim111]

I suspect you heard me say all couples should use NFP to plan every child. As Pius XIII says, this is not rarely the case, but Church teaching is clear that a grave reason is needed and I know all couples do not have grave reasons.

 

The reason I say all couples should use NFP is for the benefit of their health and knowledge about their fertility -- nothing to do with using NFP as contraception, which is Pius XIII is talking about in the quoted encyclical. A woman should know what her cycle is like, whether it's predictable or erratic, how her diet/sleep/etc. affects it, etc. Many women have some kind of fertility-related disorder that can go untreated or mistreated (especially with artificual hormone pills) until they start charting their cycle and learning exactly what their body is doing. My fiance has been charting for a few years in order to manage a condition that requires a fairly strict diet to keep her cycle predictable. I'm sure we all know someone who is prescribed birth control for something other than contraception... most of them could probably quit that prescription if they took the slightly more difficult route of charting and changed a few things about their lifestyle.

 

Bottom line is, we should be aware that there are many useful and potentially life-saving reasons to practice a method of NFP.... especially single women who might thing NFP is only for married couples.

 

Maybe a more holistic acronym is needed... NFA for Natural Fertility Awarness :)

 

I guess i choose poor wording, I am not against NFA, but in my theology class in high school we were basically shown that practing sex during unfertile times was equal if not better then abstaining. I am not saying you have to abstain, but was taught that NFP was something good in and of itself, rather then something too be used out of necessity.

 

I oust this out there to inform others, I was disappointed the Catholic school never even mentioned you must have a reason to use it. I think this false reasoning comes form people like basil who think the primary purpose of sex is children and mutual love. When mutual love is a secondary effect.

[ToJesusMyHeart]