Immigration Control.

[T-fish]

It's all about mammon today anyway. 

The Law, as in God's, is to treat aliens as your kin.

 

I wonder what the redman thinks about USA immigration laws.....

 

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I disagree with the premise of your "compromise" that grants all illegal immigrants legal status. That would merely encourage mass immigration and put huge burdens on healthcare, welfare, housing, etc. 
 

 

What if there was a specific date attached to it, here before 2012...2013? My idea isn't exclusive to boarder control measures. Do those ideas change you opinion at all or make you at all waivery?

[T-fish]

What if there was a specific date attached to it, here before 2012...2013? My idea isn't exclusive to boarder control measures. Do those ideas change you opinion at all or make you at all waivery?

Would you let in the Lady of Guadalupe?

[EmilyAnn]

What if there was a specific date attached to it, here before 2012...2013? My idea isn't exclusive to boarder control measures. Do those ideas change you opinion at all or make you at all waivery?

So with that provision, your measures would be aimed at regularising current illegal immigrants? Say it came into force now, would there be a time limit for people to comply?

[havok579257]

You are absolutely right. However, i'll give you four reasons why I don't agree with you.

1. A person should have the right to make such a mistake. While punishment is a deterrent,  the better deterrent is knowledge about these substances and how they affect you. Self-discipline is another stronger deterrent than punishment. Would you do heroin if it was legal? Of course not. 
 

2. The black-market should never benefit from these things. Making these drugs (and prostitution) illegal gives criminals a great amount of power, is a source of police corruption (police, like any normal person, can be easily bought), and leads to more people ultimately dying.

3. There are ways around any law if a person wants to actually get high. For example, there are many herbs and flowers that render similar effects to many of the illegal drugs on the black market. They haven't been made illegal. If people really want to get high, they will.  

4. The black market is such now that it is easier for a middle schooler to buy weed than it is for him/her to buy alcohol (I know people who used to smoke in Middle School). If you're very concerned about the wrong people getting these drugs, I would think that you would want the government to place regulations on the drugs sold. They can't do that if these drugs are illegal. 

 

 

so your ok with something that degrades women, that makes women into slaves and that advocated beating women when they don't bring in enough money?  Prostitution is vile and evil and for any country to promote iot is absolutely wrong.  It degrades women.  It forces them to have sex with men for money.  If you honestly think that any woman is happy to be used by a man for his own sexual needs then you have no clue about anything about prostitution. 

 

It is really bad that any catholic would advocate the denegration of women as something that should be legal.

[havok579257]

You defend your life, your family, and your neighbors. I am NOT condemning anybody and I'm not sitting on a high horse. I'm trying to find a solution to the problem that can be actually accomplished. Compromise is the name of the game in American Government. Without it we wouldn't have the Constitution, We have forgotten it and politics has gotten REALLY stupid. Would it be great if rainbows were sour straws and rain was caramel syrup that fell on top of the vanilla ice cream sun rays. But our ideal is not met in hardly any situation. The two ideologies must be given something that is NOT essential to the goal of their position. One side wants to forgive everybody and have welcoming arms and says whatever your past and problems here's a chance to make your world better. Another side wants the laws to be respected and followed. They may or may not trust the values being brought with them and want to preserve governmental and cultural ideals from radical changes. Is one of these views better than the other?..sure it is, whichever one you lean towards more is which you think is better.

 

So the ETHIOPIAN  immigrant who lived in abject poverty and danger which makes Mexico look like an amazing resort should NOT view citizenship as something for those who follow the law? They had to wait in line go through the hoops ect to escape their violent situation, but hey who cares Mexicans live across the boarder so they shouldn't have to follow the laws? I know a good number of legal immigrants some who have become citizens and some who are still waiting who are pissed when illegal immigrants demand citizenship. So from my intent of the post was in regard to those who gain citizenship as immigrants...

 

 

What about the OP compromise does not meet the ideas of solidarity, or allow for the economic benefit immigration can bring?

 

 

Defend your children and wife which you absolutely know will mean they die or move somewhere safer?  Your really advocating someone do something that will for sure get his family slaughtered?  The drug cartels have all the power.  They kill politicians and law enforcement without a second thought.  Right now, a bunch of citizens standing up to them is going to do nothing.  Other than guarente their slaughter.  Sorry but you must not have a wife and children so you can not understand.  Cause I having a wife and children would never put them in a no win situation to be slaughtered, possibly raped and possibly be sold into the sex slave ring.  I would move my family to some place that is safer and gives them a chance at a life.

 

Please, please show me any immigrant who thinks being slaughtered in mexico by the cartels as an amazing resort?  Please show me anyone who would love to live in daily fear and see law enforcement heads on pikes in their country.  You know  to try and make your point you over exaggerate and come off as unintelligent.

 

I don't think just Mexicans should be allowed in this country.  Any person in another country that's life is in danger and family is in danger on a daily basis. 

 

Here is a question for you to think, how many people die waiting to be allowed in this country legally?  How many people have thier children die from numerous reasons while they wait to enter legally?  The church teaches that it is not a sin to steal if your family is starving and going to die.  To me, its the same thing when your family is going to be killed and you get away to a safer country. 

 

Is it right just because you and I were born 100 feet across from someone else that we should enjoy all the benifts while the other man is denied it all and has to live in poverty, fear and pain his whole life?  All becuase we were born 100 feet from each other?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

so your ok with something that degrades women, that makes women into slaves and that advocated beating women when they don't bring in enough money?  

My friend, I believe we both agree on the essential points. There is a misunderstanding. Prostitution, when regulated properly (check out how New Zealand does it) is actually much better than illegal prostitution. Once something like prostitution is made legal, the state can actually regulate it instead of turn a blind eye whenever it occurs. The abuse from pimps, along with the horrible crimes associated with prostitution are due to it being illegal. The sex trafficking that exists due to corrupt policemen (unless they're extremely stupid or don't care) funds heartless criminals. The government will be able to control sex trafficking if it allows prostitution and regulates it. Let's not forget that both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas have spoken in favor of prostitution (I'm not lying, look it up). 

 

 

Prostitution is vile and evil and for any country to promote iot is absolutely wrong.  It degrades women.  It forces them to have sex with men for money.  If you honestly think that any woman is happy to be used by a man for his own sexual needs then you have no clue about anything about prostitution.

Ah, I think you are referring to the cases of prostitution in places where it is offered through the black market. What I am advocating would allow women to open up their own brothels. It eliminates the need for a pimp. I strongly believe much of the evils that come out of prostitution are directly caused by it being illegal. As insane as it sounds, there are prostitutes that enjoy their work and aren't forced to do it. I feel that ignoring this situation and keeping prostitution illegal is potentially much more sinful because we are not only allowing prostitution to exist (we're not getting rid of it any time soon), but we are allowing for bad people to get money from this trade and become rich and powerful. We are allowing for the stereotypical image of prostitution to thrive in our societies. 

Edited April 28, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[havok579257]

My friend, I believe we both agree on the essential points. There is a misunderstanding. Prostitution, when regulated properly (check out how New Zealand does it) is actually much better than illegal prostitution. Once something like prostitution is made legal, the state can actually regulate it instead of turn a blind eye whenever it occurs. The abuse from pimps, along with the horrible crimes associated with prostitution are due to it being illegal. The sex trafficking that exists due to corrupt policemen (unless they're extremely stupid or don't care) funds heartless criminals. The government will be able to control sex trafficking if it allows prostitution and regulates it. Let's not forget that both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas have spoken in favor of prostitution (I'm not lying, look it up). 

 

 

Ah, I think you are referring to the cases of prostitution in places where it is offered through the black market. What I am advocating would allow women to open up their own brothels. It eliminates the need for a pimp. I strongly believe much of the evils that come out of prostitution are directly caused by it being illegal. As insane as it sounds, there are prostitutes that enjoy their work and aren't forced to do it. I feel that ignoring this situation and keeping prostitution illegal is potentially much more sinful because we are not only allowing prostitution to exist (we're not getting rid of it any time soon), but we are allowing for bad people to get money from this trade and become rich and powerful. We are allowing for the stereotypical image of prostitution to thrive in our societies. 

 

 

do you believe that there are positives from prostitution?  You are catholic, right?  You do know what the churchs stance on prostitution is?  Your advocating serious sin.  Your advocating something that destroys a person.  That turns the marital embrace which God created into a job that degrades women into sex objects.  The churchs position is pretty clear on prositution.  To promote prositution(which is what your promoting governments do) is a serious sin.  Also you do understand the arguements your making for why prositution should be legal are very similar to what people argue to why abortion should be legal. 

[Nihil Obstat]

do you believe that there are positives from prostitution?  You are catholic, right?  You do know what the churchs stance on prostitution is?  Your advocating serious sin.  Your advocating something that destroys a person.  That turns the marital embrace which God created into a job that degrades women into sex objects.  The churchs position is pretty clear on prositution.  To promote prositution(which is what your promoting governments do) is a serious sin.  Also you do understand the arguements your making for why prositution should be legal are very similar to what people argue to why abortion should be legal. 

St. Thomas Aquinas argued that prostitution could be legal - tolerated - in order to avoid a greater evil.

I would suggest that perhaps you should do your research before so aggressively questioning someone's faith, simply because they disagree with your conclusions on a practical matter.

 

 

I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in theuniverse, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evilsensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lestcertain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust." Hence, though unbelievers sin in their rites, they may be tolerated, either on account of some good that ensues therefrom, or because of some evil avoided. Thus from the fact that the Jews observe their rites, which, of old, foreshadowed the truth of the faithwhich we hold, there follows this good--that our very enemies bear witness to our faith, and that our faithis represented in a figure, so to speak. For this reason they are tolerated in the observance of their rites.

On the other hand, the rites of other unbelievers, which are neither truthful nor profitable are by no means to be tolerated, except perchance in order to avoid an evil, e.g. the scandal or disturbance that might ensue, or some hindrance to the salvation of those who if they were unmolested might gradually beconverted to the faith. For this reason the Church, at times, has tolerated the rites even of heretics andpagans, when unbelievers were very numerous.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Nihil Obstat

[CatholicsAreKewl]

do you believe that there are positives from prostitution?  You are catholic, right?  You do know what the churchs stance on prostitution is?  Your advocating serious sin.  Your advocating something that destroys a person.  That turns the marital embrace which God created into a job that degrades women into sex objects.  The churchs position is pretty clear on prositution.  To promote prositution(which is what your promoting governments do) is a serious sin.  Also you do understand the arguements your making for why prositution should be legal are very similar to what people argue to why abortion should be legal. 

I am advocating that prostitution be legal. I'm not endorsing the practice itself. I strongly believe keeping it illegal is completely immoral given the context. You are inadvertently advocating for the current pimp-run system. One cannot argue against prostitution being legal and then deplore the evils of it in the same sentence. The evils of it exist primarily because it is illegal. I am arguing against criminals getting money, becoming powerful, and being able to import sex slaves. The government will be able to control these things if prostitution is legalized. 

Edited April 29, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[havok579257]

The evils of it exist primarily because it is illegal.

 

 

It degrades women and makes them into sex objects for men and forces them to degrade themselves sexually for money.  Last I checked, legal or illegal this doesn't change.  Same with pornography.  Make it legal all you want it still destroys the persons worth, makes them have to use their body for money and turns them into sex objects degrading themselves, the marital act and degrades the men who use women for sex.  Sorry but there are not positives from prostituion and promoting it.

[Nihil Obstat]

St. Thomas Aquinas argued that prostitution could be legal - tolerated - in order to avoid a greater evil.

I would suggest that perhaps you should do your research before so aggressively questioning someone's faith, simply because they disagree with your conclusions on a practical matter.

 

 

I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in theuniverse, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evilsensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lestcertain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust." Hence, though unbelievers sin in their rites, they may be tolerated, either on account of some good that ensues therefrom, or because of some evil avoided. Thus from the fact that the Jews observe their rites, which, of old, foreshadowed the truth of the faithwhich we hold, there follows this good--that our very enemies bear witness to our faith, and that our faithis represented in a figure, so to speak. For this reason they are tolerated in the observance of their rites.

On the other hand, the rites of other unbelievers, which are neither truthful nor profitable are by no means to be tolerated, except perchance in order to avoid an evil, e.g. the scandal or disturbance that might ensue, or some hindrance to the salvation of those who if they were unmolested might gradually beconverted to the faith. For this reason the Church, at times, has tolerated the rites even of heretics andpagans, when unbelievers were very numerous.

*ahem*

[CatholicsAreKewl]

It degrades women and makes them into sex objects for men and forces them to degrade themselves sexually for money.  Last I checked, legal or illegal this doesn't change.  Same with pornography.  Make it legal all you want it still destroys the persons worth, makes them have to use their body for money and turns them into sex objects degrading themselves, the marital act and degrades the men who use women for sex.  Sorry but there are not positives from prostituion and promoting it.

 Like I said before, I think there might be a misunderstanding. I am not promoting prostitution. I believe the evils surrounding prostitution now, including physical abuse of the females, disease, sex trafficking, and violence, are greater evils than the act of prostitution itself. Legalizing this institution would help to fix many of these problems. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

St. Thomas Aquinas argued that prostitution could be legal - tolerated - in order to avoid a greater evil.

I would suggest that perhaps you should do your research before so aggressively questioning someone's faith, simply because they disagree with your conclusions on a practical matter.

 

 

I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in theuniverse, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evilsensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lestcertain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust." Hence, though unbelievers sin in their rites, they may be tolerated, either on account of some good that ensues therefrom, or because of some evil avoided. Thus from the fact that the Jews observe their rites, which, of old, foreshadowed the truth of the faithwhich we hold, there follows this good--that our very enemies bear witness to our faith, and that our faithis represented in a figure, so to speak. For this reason they are tolerated in the observance of their rites.

On the other hand, the rites of other unbelievers, which are neither truthful nor profitable are by no means to be tolerated, except perchance in order to avoid an evil, e.g. the scandal or disturbance that might ensue, or some hindrance to the salvation of those who if they were unmolested might gradually beconverted to the faith. For this reason the Church, at times, has tolerated the rites even of heretics andpagans, when unbelievers were very numerous.

Thanks for providing the quote, Nihil. I have only read a shortened version of that. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Thanks for providing the quote, Nihil. I have only read a shortened version of that. 

It is challenging to read more than a few sentences of Aquinas sometimes. :hehe2: I always triple-check to make sure I understand what he is getting at.