Tolerance

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I'm afraid I can't be more specific. He said something about giving the scraps from the table to the dogs or something, if that rings a bell.

 

You're wrong: I never said he should have conversed with him. I think he handled the situation quite nicely. Did Jesus converse when he went into the Temple and he saw the men ripping off the poor by making outrageous prices? No. He made a whip and whipped them out of there, flipping tables and yelling as he did so. Was that wrong of Jesus?

It wasn't wrong if it was Fulton Sheen's parish. It's upsetting that he handled the situation this way though. I don't agree with the shunning of/ignoring seemingly heretical ideas. I feel that Sheen could have at least listened to what he had to say. Had Martin Luther been listened to, imagine what might have happened (I don't particularly like Luther but part of what led to the split was as much of the Church's fault in how it handled the situation). 

[4588686]

I'm confused as to why the school hired her in the first place if they knew she was Methodist.  I think it's incredibly tacky that an "anonymous parent" called the school after reading about their kid's teacher IN THE OBITUARIES.  As far as we know, no one knew the teacher was gay or in a long-term relationship, so the teacher was doing the right thing by keeping her sex life to herself.  Plus we don't know what went down between the principal and the teacher. Maybe they told her they'd give her a great recommendation despite having to let her go. I sure as heck hope that the school routinely fires any teacher that admits to using birth control, having premarital sex, or not attending Sunday Mass.

 

I don't fault the school for letting her go, but I think the "anonymous parent" was wrong to deprive the teacher of her livelihood if she wasn't parading around that she wasn't following Church teaching.  

 

 

Exactly.

 

I'd also like to point out that nobody can answer my questions regarding which sex acts they know that she's committed.  The relationship could no longer be sexual for all they know.  Not exactly unheard of for long term married couples.     

[PhuturePriest]

It wasn't wrong if it was Fulton Sheen's parish. It's upsetting that he handled the situation this way though. I don't agree with the shunning of/ignoring seemingly heretical ideas. I feel that Sheen could have at least listened to what he had to say. Had Martin Luther been listened to, imagine what might have happened (I don't particularly like Luther but part of what led to the split was as much of the Church's fault in how it handled the situation). 

 

This is actually a bad analogy. Martin Luther WAS listened to. He was scrupulous in the absolute extreme, and his confessor had to listen to him make ridiculously long confessions and try to explain to him there was no sin, and as soon as he left the confessional he would turn around and tell his confessor he forgot to mention something else. Martin Luther was shunned and hated by his father. He had deep mental problems. Even if he had been listened to, his mental problems wouldn't have been stopped. You don't stop a deep-seated mental issue by having a nice discussion, especially not in the Medieval ages when they didn't even have aspirin, let alone pills that could have helped his psychological issues.

[Guest Raz]

This is actually a bad analogy. Martin Luther WAS listened to. He was scrupulous in the absolute extreme, and his confessor had to listen to him make ridiculously long confessions and try to explain to him there was no sin, and as soon as he left the confessional he would turn around and tell his confessor he forgot to mention something else. Martin Luther was shunned and hated by his father. He had deep mental problems. Even if he had been listened to, his mental problems wouldn't have been stopped. You don't stop a deep-seated mental issue by having a nice discussion, especially not in the Medieval ages when they didn't even have aspirin, let alone pills that could have helped his psychological issues.

 

Is this the same philosophy modern day catholics are supposed to apply to homosexuals? "Talking won't help, so make them go away." I have to believe that that cannot be true, however the actions of the diocese of columbus in this case of exemplified just that.

 

Also, not that I'm a big Luther fan, but there were a bunch of things he spoke out about in the Catholic Church that actually did make a lot of sense, and we do follow some of his advice today. For example, parishes are no longer allowed to charge money for blessings or prayers requested by catholics (which is how the church built up a great deal of its massive fortune for over a thousand years).

[CatholicsAreKewl]

This is actually a bad analogy. Martin Luther WAS listened to. He was scrupulous in the absolute extreme, and his confessor had to listen to him make ridiculously long confessions and try to explain to him there was no sin, and as soon as he left the confessional he would turn around and tell his confessor he forgot to mention something else. Martin Luther was shunned and hated by his father. He had deep mental problems. Even if he had been listened to, his mental problems wouldn't have been stopped. You don't stop a deep-seated mental issue by having a nice discussion, especially not in the Medieval ages when they didn't even have aspirin, let alone pills that could have helped his psychological issues.

You're right. I would offer that some of the criticisms he made were things the Church actually needed to work on... but then I think about "On the Jews on their Lies" and I kind of forget why I brought him up. 

 

Regardless, I feel it's always better to listen to people, even crazy people, than to ignore and be rude to them. 

Edited April 25, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[HisChildForever]

I sure as heck hope that the school routinely fires any teacher that admits to using birth control, having premarital sex, or not attending Sunday Mass.

 

I was thinking EXACTLY this. How many teachers in that school support same-sex marriage? use and or support contraception? engage in or are okay with premarital sex? support abortion?? If you fire one teacher for (presumably) living a sinful lifestyle, you might as well fire all the teachers who do the same.

 

ETA: Heck, the principal might as well fire herself for judging and perhaps wrongfully accusing the teacher, thus tarnishing her reputation, leaving her at the mercy of gossip, etc....

Edited April 25, 2013 by HisChildForever

[Guest Raz]

I was thinking EXACTLY this. How many teachers in that school support same-sex marriage? use and or support contraception? engage in or are okay with premarital sex? support abortion?? If you fire one teacher for (presumably) living a sinful lifestyle, you might as well fire all the teachers who do the same.

 

ETA: Heck, the principal might as well fire herself for judging and perhaps wrongfully accusing the teacher, thus tarnishing her reputation, leaving her at the mercy of gossip, etc....

 

Haha, it's hard enough to find good teachers, let alone good teachers who are also good catholics!

 

I'm sure there are some teachers in catholic schools who are guilty of at least one of those things, but the schools don't really pry into their lives like that. The problem in this case was that it became public knowledge in the form of two names written next to each other in an obituary.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Raz

[HisChildForever]

Haha, it's hard enough to find good teachers, let alone good teachers who are also good catholics!

 

I'm sure there are some teachers in catholic schools who are guilty of at least one of those things, but the schools don't really pry into their lives like that. The problem in this case was that it became public knowledge in the form of two names written next to each other in an obituary.

 

I wonder what the principal would do if a teacher was spotted buying contraception at the local pharmacy.

[Basilisa Marie]

Haha, it's hard enough to find good teachers, let alone good teachers who are also good catholics!

 

I'm sure there are some teachers in catholic schools who are guilty of at least one of those things, but the schools don't really pry into their lives like that. The problem in this case was that it became public knowledge in the form of two names written next to each other in an obituary.

 

No, the problem was when an "anonymous" parent called and complained after reading the obituary.  

[Guest Raz]

No, the problem was when an "anonymous" parent called and complained after reading the obituary.  

 

true.

[Ice_nine]

I feel bad for her losing her job. Tough situation.

[Apotheoun]

I'm confused as to why the school hired her in the first place if they knew she was Methodist.  I think it's incredibly tacky that an "anonymous parent" called the school after reading about their kid's teacher IN THE OBITUARIES.  As far as we know, no one knew the teacher was gay or in a long-term relationship, so the teacher was doing the right thing by keeping her sex life to herself.  Plus we don't know what went down between the principal and the teacher. Maybe they told her they'd give her a great recommendation despite having to let her go. I sure as heck hope that the school routinely fires any teacher that admits to using birth control, having premarital sex, or not attending Sunday Mass.

 

I don't fault the school for letting her go, but I think the "anonymous parent" was wrong to deprive the teacher of her livelihood if she wasn't parading around that she wasn't following Church teaching.  

I think the parent was perfectly within his or her rights as a parent. It is not the fault of the parent that the teacher withheld information from the school about the objectively immoral lifestyle she had chosen to live. Every contract I signed with the Catholic schools I worked for in the past had a morals clause in it, and it also made it clear that I could be let go for violating Catholic moral principles. What I read in the article indicates that the school in question likewise has a morals clause. It is sad that the teacher chose to live a life in contradiction to the moral norm.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

That's a bit different. It would be very hard to argue someone is born a Kleptomaniac. Let's look at psychopathy instead. The brain of a psychopath is actually wired differently than yours or mine. Such a person lacks empathy, explaining why an estimated 20-30 percent of the prison population is believed to be psychopathic. Psychopaths are marked by egocentricity, an incapacity for love, and an inability for feel remorse for their actions.  Wasn't it St. Augustine that said that self-love is the root of all sin? In that case, these people's lives revolve around sin. Many of those suffering from psychopathy end up depressed due to their failure to hold steady relationships and their inability to control their behaviors. Can we really use the fall of man to explain something like this? 

It is not hard to argue that at all, and it would not make the immorality of theft moral even if there was a genetic predisposition to someone stealing things. We still have free will and can either follow our passions or resist them. The homosexual inclination is disordered in its end, and anyone who acts upon those disordered desires also commits a sin. But back to the main point, we are talking about a Catholic school, and a Catholic school should be just that "Catholic," and if a person is living in contradiction to the moral law the school should - in order to avoid public scandal - let the person go. 

[Apotheoun]

I sure as heck hope that the school routinely fires any teacher that admits to using birth control, having premarital sex, or not attending Sunday Mass.

I would hope so too. At the various Catholic schools I worked at the morals clause was on occasion invoked. It is difficult when that happens, but the reputation of the school as a Catholic institution is at stake. By the way, I have never seen a school contract that requires Sunday Mass attendance, but if a school has that stipulated in the contract, and the employee signs the contract, then it follows that the employee had best abide by it, since by signing the contract he has agreed to abide by the various stipulations as set forth in the agreement. A man should be true to his word.

 

Ultimately the debate in this thread this boils down to one thing: is the school really Catholic, or is it Catholic in name only? I have seen plenty of schools that have Catholic in their name but that are no longer really Catholic. I have often advised families with school age children to avoid certain schools if they are serious about the faith of the children. When a school claims to be Catholic but is not, it would be nice if the local bishop would disassociate the school from the Church in order to avoid the public scandal of having an institution calling itself Catholic doing things contrary to the faith. But many bishops are not that strong. Perhaps as persecution of Catholics increases in the future the Church will get better bishops. Hope springs eternal.

 

Postscript: Although I have not seen a contract that specifically mentions Mass attendance, I have seen contracts that require the person to be a practicing Catholic, and so in that case the school could let a person go if they end up not being in fact a practicing Catholic.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

I was thinking EXACTLY this. How many teachers in that school support same-sex marriage? use and or support contraception? engage in or are okay with premarital sex? support abortion?? If you fire one teacher for (presumably) living a sinful lifestyle, you might as well fire all the teachers who do the same.

 

ETA: Heck, the principal might as well fire herself for judging and perhaps wrongfully accusing the teacher, thus tarnishing her reputation, leaving her at the mercy of gossip, etc....

If a teacher supports "same-sex marriage" or other immoral and false teachings, then they should be let go. If a Catholic school is really Catholic it should stick to the moral principles of Christ as set forth in scripture and tradition. I must admit that I would be overjoyed to see Catholic universities enforce the Church moral doctrine. Maybe some of those Catholic universities would become Catholic again.